Franchise ahoy!

I've been predicting for awhile that Mars Hill Church in Seattle would try to plant a video venue here in Portland, notwithstanding the two to four (depending on how you count) Acts 29 planted churches in the metro area. 

Then today, I got this Facebook invite: ""Hey guys for those of you who have enjoyed the teaching of Mark Driscol (sic) we welcome you to join this group and invite you to pray about the possibility of a Mars Hill Church Portland Campus ".

Now, truth is, this may simply be an overeager fan boy. Or it may be someone who's actually doing something "official." Who knows. 

I do know this- Mark needs men. 900 men to be precise. Recently he posted this:

"We are deadly serious about the great commission and loading all guns to storm hell with the gospel of grace. And we need more men. Nine hundred men. Not boys—men. Real men. Men who care less about padding their resume and getting their vacation days than about seeing lives transformed and legacies altered for generations. We need men who love their wives, pastor their children, submit to Scripture, bleed the gospel, and have steel in their spine, love in their hearts, and the lost in their sights."

I'm all about men loving their wives, pastoring their children, submitting to Scripture, bleeding the Gospel, etc, etc. But truthfully, I have a feeling that when we talk about it, it tends to come out differently. And don't even get me started on the where the women are in this picture. Keeping the home fires burning while the men storm the gates, I assume.

Anyway, this invite to discuss a video venue or Mars Hill was sent to the wrong guy. Not sure how someone could be my Facebook friend and NOT know my thoughts on this, but in case you need a refresher, check here. 

I feel badly, but I did "join" the group and posted a thought... we'll see how long it stays on the page :)

I said: "Look- not to be a jerk- but there are already three churches here in Portland started by the Acts 29 network. A video church of Mark's teaching is not only redundant (it's all vodcasted, right?) it's kind of an insult to those who have worked hard to plant the churches that this video venue would most likely draw people from.

As someone who has planted and is planting churches in PDX, I can assure you- my problem isn't thinking that there are too many churches in Portland. I'm passionate about seeing as many real churches planted as possible. But a franchised video church with elders who live in another state, 3 hours away? No- thank you."

Please understand- If you want to listen to Mark's podcast/watch his vodcast, I think you should go for it- I subscribe to his podcast for crying out loud. But where we're going with this is eventually a Mark Driscoll, Andy Stanley, Ed Young Jr, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, et al Video Franchise in every major city, the further Wal-Martization of the church and, I kid you not- the death of preaching.

 

Think that's hyperbole? 

Stay tuned. 

Comments

[Dustin]

Amen! I actually feel sorry for the "campus pastor" (franchise manager) who organizes everything but gets to teach once a month while the other time sitting idly by watching a video screen. Death of preaching is right!

[Dustin]

oh, and as far as the quote goes about needing "900 men...), I actually thought that was a parody before I saw it was actually from Mars Hill. Funny stuff. Wittenburg Door and Lark News has nothing on reality!

[Troy Hamby]

I agree 100% Bob. This whole "multi site" thing just doesn't seem right to me...right up there with having church in movie theaters. It just feeds into the whole consumer mindset that is poisoning the church.

[BD]

Please, no Mars Hill video colonies in PDX! I really hope that this is from someone who's a little overzealous and not actually something MHC is considering. It would follow a line going on in Churchianity right now though that says preaching is about the personality talking more than anything else...

[Michael W]

I agree. While I am not really against multi campus/video churches, I am passionate for the local church, and having a church in portland, where all the pastor talks about it seattle (and SHOULD talk about seattle, seeing as he is IN seattle) is pretty silly. I am not a big fan of their Olympia campus even.

Also, and this is probably sinful what I am about to say, but I grew up in Portland, and the biggest difference between Portlanders and Seattleites, is that Portlanders are nice. Mark would screw that up. Even though I do like Mark.

[eugene]

I shouldn't have invited you to this Facebook group. My bad.

I hope we can still be facebook friends.

[ryan]

Hey Bob,

Intrigued by your twitter about a Mormon missionary conversation. Not that I don't like reading your thoughts on video churches, I do, but think it would be interesting to hear more about how that went. Then again, this could just be coming from the fact that I have been doing a lot of research recently on Mormon theology and history recently.

[Jen W]

Bob... I don't know exactly where you stand regarding the theology of Mars Hill, but having been there a couple times I was pretty offended by the male elite stuff. Having a baptism and the testimony of the girl is that she was happy to finally have strong male leadership seemed off, and then finding out about a history of misogyny problems...
I think PDX is better off without MHC. I know I'm posting rather off topic, but I thought your critique mild.

[bobhyatt]

Eugene: :)

Troy-
I should clarify- I'm not against multi site or theaters (though having been to a few theater churches I can't say I like the distance the layout inevitably seems to develop between people)- in fact, evergreen is a multisite church. I think small/medium multisite WITHOUT video venues actually builds leadership/gifts/talents of the body in a way that neither video venues nor megachurch can.

Jen- I'm with you. Evergreen has female elders, but...
At least in this issue the subject isn't so much theology of leadership/ egalitarianism vs complementarianism and not wanting "them" in pdx- it's more to me about the ecclesiology of the thing.
There's a good number of people reading this who are complementarians, and that's okay :) I don't want to set something up where they feel are emotionally tempted to defend bad praxis because they're on the same "team"

[bobhyatt]

Ryan- not much to say, actually. I felt bad for not giving them more time or trying to really engage them- but I was working at home and Amy was out on a walk or running an errand- And I didn't want them to ring the bell because the baby was sleeping, and from past experience I knew= these guys have been trained not to have a real discussion. Talking points only.
So I just tried to hurry the process- I just felt a little jerky. Like they were really going to say "Oh- you know about Kolob. Okay- we'll find someone else."

[Aaron Pelly]

You jerk.

Actually, I thought what you wrote was very well put, and I've appreciated all your posts on video venues. I write this as someone who attends a video venue in a theater. [Hangs head in shame]

Like they were really going to say "Oh- you know about Kolob. Okay- we'll find someone else."

You're cracking me up here! You're right about them being trained not to engage in any real conversation, though.

[ianmcn]

I love the (unintentional?) irony of the phrase:

loading all guns to storm hell with the gospel of grace

[Lee Herring]

Dear Sir,

Bravo!

Sincerely,
Lee

[Matt]

It seems like you really, really dislike Mark Driscoll.

I mean, the idea of Mars Hill having a campus in Portland seems pretty ridiculous and doesn't make sense a lot of sense, but it seems like are you constantly ragging on Driscoll, far more than one any other one person you talk about here. At the least it appears that way from someone who regularly reads your blog, if only from afar.

[Larry Osborne]

Bob
I'm admittedly a biased observer (participant) in the multisite debate. But it seems to me that your rational has a lot of what I'd call a "Parish Mentality" behind it. It's the Catholic, denominational (and interestingly enough secular franchising model) that says once one of us has staked out our claim to a neighborhood, city or region everyone else in our tribe should stay out.

The problem with a Parish Mentality is that it writes off those that a particular outpost can’t reach as unreachable. At times it seems to be more concerned with keeping what it has than reaching those it hasn’t yet reached.

The opposite of traditional turf protection franchising is Starbucks. As we all know, they don’t worry about cannibalizing one store to increase the total number of customers in all stores. If they are that passionate about selling all the coffee they can – I’d like to see us equally passionate about reaching all the people we can even if that means some stores increase and some decrease.

In contrast to a Parish Mentality – I think a “Church Universal” mindset that views all genuine local church expressions of the body of Christ as merely elective Sunday school classes in the Lord's Church is equally valid metaphor that might take the debate in different directions

Just a thought from the lunatic fringe – may the debate bring clarity and alignment with our king.

[John Meche]

Yeah! And don't read sermons from any preachers either, whether dead or alive. Consuming already preached sermons will be the death of preaching!

[bobhyatt]

Hey Matt- I don't think it's a simple as like or dislike. There's much I like and admire about Mark. He's also a person of tremendous influence, and in the sense that he's leading a generation of people to see complementarianism as a part of/on par with the Gospel and in that he's taking a hand in the changing of the evangelical landscape through pushing video venues and now his (apparent) plan to put a vv in every market... I just think all of that deserves some comment.
I'm trying to keep it off the personal level and centered around why I see as the awful ecclesiology of what's happening, if that's any consolation.

[bobhyatt]

Hey Larry- Thanks for stopping by! Awesome to "see" you here. I've been telling people how much I enjoyed and learned from you and your course at NPC.

I think the test of whether I am speaking out of a parish mentality would be whether I applaud and help with other church plants here in PDX or see them all as competition.

And to answer that question I'll just say I'm engaged in coaching and mentoring other pastors and church planters right here in town. I'm not against church plants on my "home turf" in the least. I'd even welcome other Acts 29 churches here in town- you are right- they reach different (though similar) people to us and are needed.

What I am against is the franchise mentality that seeks to leverage the celebrity and giftedness of superstar pastors in an extra-local context. I'm all for the CHurch Universal mindset you are talking about- and my contention is that my position captures it MUCH more closely than the video venue franchise plan that seems to value the preaching gifts of celebrity pastors over what God can do in and through the men and women already on the scene.

I'm going to be writing more about this- I hope you'll continue to interact...

[bobhyatt]

Oh- sarcasm. Awesome. Really moves the ball forward!

As I said "If you want to listen to Mark's podcast/watch his vodcast, I think you should go for it- I subscribe to his podcast for crying out loud."

My argument about the death of preaching has more to do with what Video Venues will do (or more precisely *fail* to do) in the next generation of preachers. Why don't you hold your judgment until I actually make the argument?

[Matt]

Thanks for the clarification.

[Geektronica]

Hey Bob,
I was going to attack you for something you didn't say at all, but since everyone else has already done that...

This video franchise stuff has gotten out of control - viral in the bad sense. If you have a good idea, great - spread it, and let it take root in more cities and neighborhoods. I applaud Driscoll's success with Acts 29 (though I wish men would gravitate as strongly toward a strain of theology that treats women with more respect and equality).

But this is something different, and it's in danger of becoming a cult of personality. Driscoll is anchored pretty well within a historical tradition, even if it's one I don't particularly agree with, so I don't mean MH is actually in danger of becoming a cult.

But every leader and successful entrepreneur must at some point step aside and say "This is about the ideas and the movement. It's not about me. I had the privilege of being a part of this amazing journey, but I need to step aside and keep myself from becoming the center. Jesus is the center, and he doesn't need any challengers for that position."

For all Driscoll's talk about raising up the next generation of leaders, I think it's more like raising up the next generation of middle managers and mindless followers.

Seriously - what happens when Mark dies and leaves behind 1,000 or more churches full of and led by people who have never been asked to think for themselves? What happens when the video screen goes dark, and there's no one ready to take the stage in all these video venues?

I'd be interested in your thoughts on how Driscoll's approach to video venues compares to Rick Warren's. My understanding is that Warren uses video venues too, but if I look back on the last 15 or so years of Warren's ministry, I see something that's much more about the ideas and the movement, and much less about one man's face on lots of screens. I see just as much passion and advocacy, but a lot less arrogance and celebrity entitlement in Warren compared to Driscoll.

[Tom]

I can't imagine anything worse than the franchise model really taking hold and becoming the dominant expression of "church" in North America. I hope PDX is spared this fate.

[matt]

Bob,

Your thoughts are appreciated and well received. I vacillate between your and Larry's position more than Britney Spears vacillates between sane and insane.

Did not the early church have this same sort of celebrity with authority problem in the apostle Paul? Could we not liken his letters to Mark's vodcasts? Did the issue of celebrity authority stop Paul from exerting his teaching and authority to local congregations that had their own teaching and authority?

I say those questions, yet still REALLY resonate with your franchise warnings. So what if a local congregation uses Mark, or any other guy for that matter, for teaching. Why should this necessitate that they come under the Mars Hill franchise/authority? Can they not use his teaching yet keep their local autonomy? That's my big issue - and why I hear your warnings on the issue of franchising.

Still figuring out where I stand though. Tough one. Oh and Ryan, let's stay on topic here, okay buddy.

[Scott Cheatham]

Bob,
I've blogged a series on this on my own blog and couldn't agree with you more.
The first post in the four part series is here:
http://scottcheatham.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/expanding-church-part-one/

I'm be curious to your thoughts on the series when you have time to read it.

[bobhyatt]

My concern isn't that people would read (or listen to) and discuss Mark's teaching. It's that Mark's teaching would replace the ministry of local elders.
The primary danger here (and thus the warnings of about the death of preaching) is that Video Venue teaching will increasingly silence the teaching gifts of local church elders and the development of those gifts. Hard to say it better than "For all Driscoll's talk about raising up the next generation of leaders, I think it's more like raising up the next generation of middle managers"

I'd love to see Mars Hill plant 900 churches around America. PDX too, for that matter.
But part of that should be, *biblically* elders who can teach. Elders who know and are in relationship with those being taught and led and loved.

And while a "campus pastor" may get to do a lot of that, it's missing some pretty necessary ingredients, IMHO.