Bill Kinnon Calling Me Out! (or the problem with Internet Church/Many house churches)

Here to what I wrote on I wrote here on Out of Ur (pt 1, pt 2) about some of my thoughts on Internet Church.

Okay- so he's not calling me out, per se- but kind of! :) 

We're really saying the same thing, each of us in our provocative way. And actually, I appreciate this kind of dialogue. 

Of course, there is some pushback that's less appreciated. Perry Noble has also responded, mainly about Video Venues... 

(Is it just me, or is this the ecclesiastical equivalent of the gun-safety cop shooting himself in the foot?)

On Bill's post, Bill- I appreciate your response, but you are WRONG (make sure to read Bill's post to get this...)

And now I'm not going to point out just what you said that was wrong, while agreeing with the entire thrust of your piece!

:)

I kid, I kid...

Seriously, though- we are saying the same thing.

And please don't misunderstand my appeal to Calvin- his markers weren't meant to be an inclusive list of characteristics of the NT church. But rather, a number of things that if ABSENT, indicate that "Church" is not what you are doing.

My point was just to say if you want to have an internet ministry that's there for people, fine- but DON'T go calling it "church" and give people (whether implied or inferred) the idea that sitting in front of your computer screen watching a sermon is somehow equivalent to actively participating in a real community- it's not.

And here's where I'll go ahead and tick off the other side of the spectrum.

Me and my buddies sitting around the firepit in my backyard is not church either- absent things like praying together, teaching the Word to one another, the sacraments, some sense of accountability and discipline, biblical eldership (and many other things)...

What I'm saying is that it's easy to look at the internet church and call it lacking and silly. Shooting fish in a barrel. 

But I think the "de-churched" movement makes the same exact mistakes (albeit in a less technophile way) and just doesn't see it. 

Comments

[twitter.com/BtotheEtotheN]

I must have missed the part in Acts 8 where the disciples carried screens around so Peter could preach from Jerusalem. Acts 8 is church planting not multisiting. I've gotten really tired of these guys defending themselves while trying to make the detractors look dumb. Having said all that I do believe there are some merits to online church and harnessing the power of the internet to share the Gospel. There really has to be some middle ground on this.

[Geoff Surratt]

I've always wanted to try shooting fish in a barrel. It sounds like fun, but it seems like the barrel would get holes and then you could just grab the fish when the water leaks out.

[ianmcn]

It seems to me that it would take someone with far more security in their ministry to go down the church planting route than to have video venues to make sure everyone hears the "right" message.

[riddle]

Bob, both clips are the same.

[Nate]

Can you provide the link to Bill Kinnon's post?

[bobhyatt]

Nate- it's the first word in the post...

[Kinnon]

I guess I need bigger links, Roberto. :-)

That still of Perry is rather scary - as are the sentiments expressed. The comments in the Out of Ur piece cut to the bone - almost making me feel sorry for Perry (who, in the email conversations I've had with him, comes us across as basically a very good guy - mistaken, in my not humble estimation - but a good guy, all the same.)

Bob, in terms of me being wrong, I figure that's my state about half the time. The problem is I never know which half. And yes, you and I definitely are more in agreement than we are not.

As to shooting fish in a barrel, I hate fish but I will comment on the de-churched. At one level, if one is a believer in Jesus Christ, it is impossible to be de-churched. It is possible, however to be De-Institutionally Churched. (And yes, I will avoid the acronym for that.)

Most of the folk I know who have walked away from the Institutional Church have been leaders therein and were rather badly hurt in their experiences. The "Not EVEN Virtual Church" of their experience left them profoundly gun-shy on one hand, and craving something a little closer to what they saw promised in the New Testament. (Though thankfully, the NT is full of problematic expressions of church as it tells God's story of real people.)

Relationships across fire pits where conversation continues into the wee hours of the morning, speaking of the things of God with wounded brothers and sisters who hunger for a holistic Gospel is a lot closer to a "virtual church" (virtual = almost or nearly as described, but not completely or according to strict definition) than is the consumer-driven model of much, if not most of the church in the West.

Focus on the Sunday morning service, on the primary importance of the preaching/teaching surrounded by great music, entertaining children's ministry and good coffee for the 30 minutes folk hang around after the service (in deep hunger for actual relationships) has turned the Western church into a deliverer of feel good infotainment built around effective (or at least attempting to be) pulpiteers. As our friend, Dave Fitch says,

I fully grant that good teaching is necessary and it feeds the soul. (I regularly defend the 9 a.m. communal teaching hour at our church as essential.) Certainly consistent doctrinal exposition of texts is important on an interpersonal dialogical level in a smaller class room type setting. Unfortunately in larger arenas, the retention rate is next to nil from week to week. Good charismatic (entertaining?) preaching soothes the soul as opposed to feeds the soul. It can become a consumer item, even if it is expository preaching. Under these conditions, Christians, who are told to connect to the local church for the sake of their discipleship (as opposed to being part of a politic of mission in the world) - will naturally gravitate towards the most exciting preacher. They will leave the previous church because “I wasn’t getting fed.” For the small community churches of modernity therefore, whose members are graying, who are seeking new and younger members to replenish the dying saints, they must compete for the remainders of Christendom by presenting the Bible in as compelling and entertaining a way as they can muster. To those who can’t compete, they are in a quandary. (emphasis added)

Perry Noble's position on this is simply the logical place to be based on what he's been taught the Western Church looks like. He's used the Hybels-Warren-Young Jr. model to build a big enterprise with lots of happy-clappy butts in the seats. The fact that the community has not changed dramatically around said enterprise does not even enter into the picture. It's not about Luke 10 - it's about moving from Good to Great. And Perry would tell you he's done that - and from his perspective, I daresay he has.

Now I need to go get ready for the service at the little Anglican Church down the street from me, where the preaching will be poor, the fellowship shallow, the singing atonal, but the truth of the Risen Saviour will be alive in the ancient liturgy as we stumble past the misprints of it in this morning's bulletin.

[Dan]

I like the part in the video where Noble attacks other preachers on stage for attacking other preachers on stage. :/

[robbymac]

Y'know, from a certain point of view, the de-churched crew could be the logical end-point of the narcissistic, "my needs, my needs", consumer mentality that they decry in the institutional church.

If we're stirring the pot anyhow... :)

[Kinnon]

Hey Robby! Do you notice what book I'm reading in my picture, bro.

And I don't disagree that some of the de-churched exist outside the gathered because their needs weren't met. But 'tis unfair to tar them all with that brush as many that you and I both know are gathering around tables - with one coming with a psalm, another a song, another a word... gee, now where does that come from. :-)

I should also note that with Dan, Robby and me, here - this blog post now qualifies as CanCon. (Canadian Content.)

[Kinnon]

Oh. And I outta add that the sermon was good this morning, the scripture readings in the liturgy aimed directly at my heart, the singing tonal, but the organist... Let's just say the Maple Leafs might want to call on her services.

[bobhyatt]

Hey Bill- I don't disagree with either you or Fitch- though I will say that I think preaching is like vitamins. You don't realize it's working, but it is- slowly. So much of what I know, I know I learned from good, challenging messages, even if I can't recall the exact time or place...

On the de-churched- I see what both you and RobbyMac are saying- I think I had in mind more the kind he was talking about.

I lead a church that is 60+% "formerly churched." Tons of folks in our community (including myself) have walked away at some point and are now coming back. We also see another kind- those for whom Evergreen is the last stop.

And I can honestly say this- out of all those who have walked out the door of Evergreen and become de-churched, precious few have described anything like what you talk about. Most just feel "it doesn't work for them" anymore. That is, it's not that they are wrestling with deep issues of faith and life and spirituality, it's more that they don't want to wrestle anymore.
We've had a few claim they were going to try to "be church" with some friends- and to be perfectly honest, I never bought it. Scratch a little deeper under that and what you find is "I want to hang out where there's only people I like, where I'm not so much challenged as comforted and where I can call the shots." I'm with Robby on the ultimate consumer thing.

I'm really, really glad to hear you talk of church, and participating in it the way you do (I've ceased to find much value in the Institutional/EMerging labels- everyone's "institutional"- individuals, couples, families, house churches, whatever- we all have rules and ways things need to be for us to be happy- systems and processes that get us through). I think you have intuited what a lot of folks who have become de-churched haven't- that I need the parts that rub me wrong just as much, if not more, than I need the parts I like. I need the people I don't "get." I need community- even the hard and troublesome parts, and "me and my friends" really only provide a small (though very, very important) part of that.

[Kinnon]

Bob,
I'd see those folk who left your church 'cuz it wasn't workin' for 'em' as no different than those people who've been leaving the church since the beginning of the same - rather than the folk who can't take anymore of consumer church.

People looking for a homogeneous social gathering aren't really looking to be a part of the church - in my never humble estimation, since the church is from every tongue, tribe and nation - not to mention every strata of society.

Good conversation Bob.

Thanks.

[Kinnon]

Oh, and the book I'm reading in my pic is RobbyMac's Post-Charismatic.

[Jason Coker]

Bob - I thought you were going to say, "I think preaching is like vitamins...It doesn't really do much and you mostly piss it out in the morning."

Sorry, couldn't resist : )

I'll just say that some of the very best communities of discipleship I know are small groups of de-churched friends sitting around a firepit at night. They aren't comfortable. They're making Christ the explicit center of their community through liturgy, prayer, teaching, and yes, discipline, and they're pushing themselves relentlessly into difficult social and political issues that represent the justice of God and the diversity of the coming kingdom.

I'll also say that some of the lamest "communities of faith" I know are small groups of de-churched friends sitting around a firepit eating barbecued veggie-burgers, drinking boutique beer, and bitching about their Christendom wounds. If I ever become that...Kinnon has permission to smack me.

Still, at the end of the day when we're debating ecclesiology (or anything else for that matter) intellectual honesty requires that we compare the best of one with the best of the other. In this conversation - and countless others that have come before it like the worship wars, the translation wars, and the vilification of the prophetic (Toronto anyone?) - our shameful tendency is to compare OUR best with someone else's worst.

THAT is shooting fish in a barrell, and it's why poor Perry makes for a bad representative of the video-venues movement. My guess is that someone else (like Surratt above) would make for a more worthy adversary.

[bobhyatt]

Jason- thanks for that- there's good balance there. I too value those times and know that often what happens outside (or maybe better "alongside" the structures is what's better than happens in them, but in my view, mainly better because of the things that do happen within that community life, lame as it often is.
Thanks for the recognition that the act of becoming de-churched is not in itself noble, empowering or a guarantee of deeper life and community. It just isn't- too often it's just what you describe.
ANd here's my contention: if those friends around a firepit have "liturgy, prayer, teaching, and yes, discipline, and they're pushing themselves relentlessly into difficult social and political issues that represent the justice of God and the diversity of the coming kingdom" then they are FAR from de-churched and they should just fess up and call what they doing what it is- small church, simple church, house church- whatever... but it's Church, in the best sense of the word.

[robbymac]

Hey Bill,

Are you STILL reading it, or re-reading it? :)

Hey, you know I'm not against de-churched in principle; I also wrote "Detoxing from Church", after all!

And there's a HUGE chasm of difference between the narcissistic attitude of some, as opposed to the wounded-by-abusive-church-but-still-seeking-God-anyways (Kingdom Grace comes to mind, for example) and those who got fed up with consumer (shallow entertainment) church and are actively seeking (or creating) something deeper.

Oh, and those firepit, deep-into-the-night times with other passionate Christians? Love 'em! Although the last one I participated in was in a hot tub rather than around a fire, but it was late-night, challenging and inspiring time with some dearly loved brothers and sisters -- and the next day, one couple went back to pastoring their young Vineyard church, another went back to their recently-started organic church plant in another community, and I returned to YWAM Tijuana in México. The hot tub time wasn't the focus, it was simply an awesome time of fellowship and encouragement before we each got back to our "real" focus.

Maybe that's what made the fellowship so rich.

[Jason Coker]

Bob - Oh yes, it is "church" indeed. I agree. But I think some of us fear that if we call it that, then someone will require every person who wants to do church around a firepit to submit to a multi-step church-planting assessment complete with a requirement for a (useless but expensive) theological degree, a rigorous mental health evaluation, and an extensive credit check. I mean seriously...how hard is it to "do church?" How qualified does someone have to be to keep people's attention directed toward God? In my experience what causes pastors to burn out isn't actual ministry, it's all the overbearing tasks and requirements of keeping up with the expectations of Christendom institutionalism.

In A.A. there's a saying: "All you need to start an A.A. group is resentment and a coffee pot." I think if we were being honest we'd have to admit that's really all it takes to start a church too.

Just kidding.

Sort of.

[Jason Coker]

Oh, and one more thing: is it just me or does Perry Noble kind of resemble a young Elton John?

[grace]

1. I am not wounded, dammit. :)

2. Do people really do liturgy, prayer, teaching, and discipline around a firepit? I wonder what firepit church discipline looks like.

3. Hot-tub church sounds revealing.

4. Some people intentionally plant churches. Other people intentionally don't. And that's okay.

[Kinnon]

I think it may be time for a group hug.

[Kinnon]

Just not in a hot tub, eh!

[robbymac]

Especially not when holding a paperback (makes the pages curl funny)...