Let's talk about our stool...

So, a little discussion on leadership has broken out in the comments on my 1st Seven Questions answer...

I wrote the post below, and Brian said:

Trust. Trust that we will find balance without having to run all over the teeter-totter trying to creating balance at each moment.

To which I said:

Oh, I do Brian.. but it's a three-legged stool, you know?
Trust in the Holy Spirit to guide and teach us, trust in the community to listen to the Holy Spirit, and exercising my role as shepherd, our role as elders. It seems like if you kick out any of these three, you end up in trouble.
I can trust, but also act...

The trust keeps me from freaking out.

i hope. :)

To which Brian replied:

Well said.

And then Starla chimed in:

Three legged stool? So, you think that the leadership is a different post than the community post? Somehow separate and distinct? Oh, dear God, no. Bob, you are part of the community and do not exist apart from it. And do you share the same weight as the Holy Spirit? Dear Blessed Lord! This analogy disturbs me so.

Having greater weight or responsibility is one thing, but you're own separate post!?! Simply having greater responsibility has been misused and overused so many times...by so many leaders...there must be a better way. Surely, there is, at the very least, a better analogy.

And I replied:

Well, I'll think more about it... but some thoughts:

It's an us/we (leadership) not a "me" and that's pretty important.

There are commands in Scripture directed specifically at teachers/pastors/leaders...

It seems as though God, in the context of community, calls some to higher responsibility...

We can flatten it as much as is humanly possible, but there will always be a role for leaders, right?

I separate it in my comment, because there may be a time when leadership needs to call the community to listen to the Holy Spirit more carefully (and vice versa!), right?

and then:

No wait... the more I think about this, the more I think it's an appropriate analogy. Let's change gears and see if it still works...

Take the issue of kid's ministry, right? We've been saying it's an everybody/all community thing... but some are stepping up and taking more responsibility in bringing structure to what we do with kids... so what's wrong with saying that kid's ministry rest on the legs of the community as a whole, and parents and those who have stepped up to facilitate? There's definitely overlap there, but also some areas where there's no overlap... each deserves to be singled out.

Or doing the Bridge feast? Clearly, the multnomah group depends on the community as a whole to do it and help make it happen, but they take the lead... feeding the Bridge kids rests on the legs of the community as a whole and the Multnomah Village Home Group...

So yeah, in the context of keeping the community on track, we depend on the Holy Spirit, on the community as a whole, and the leadership as a subset of the community.

yeah :)

So what do you think? Should leadership get it's own leg in the stool???

As an aside, I think starla was posting this as I wrote those last comments, but she asks some really good questions about just what leaders will be judged on, anyway:

I agree, Leaders, I believe, will be judged at a higher standard based on my reading of scripture. Am I judged by the correctness of my position? My ability to create consensus? The patience I show others? The gentleness of correction? I already am not perfect, nor can I be. I cannot have perfect theology or a perfect faith. So, how will I be judged?

Does that greater responsibility translate into a change in behavior? Maek me more conservative? Less likely to take risks? Does that mean a lay person does not share the burden of training others? Making others accountable? Operating under conviction?

It starts to look a great deal like the conversation we had about marriage...

(BTW-by "you" I meant leadership--it is no less strange for me to think of you, rich, chris, chip and stephen having your own 'leg'.)

Comments

[Brian]

I'm not ready to call it a bicycle or a tricycle, stool or lean-to, but the example of something like kids ministry... I see parents and those that have stepped up with kids as being the portion of the community that has born that responsibility, but not distinct from the community.

The examples of the Mult Group and the kids moves me away from 3 legs. Sorry. :)

I've been raised to see leaders (elders/pastors) as people with special authority in the community, and I still feel that way. Sorry if you can't always tell. :) I confess my confusion as to how that's fleshed out in the postmodern/emergent/decentralized church.

As for our stool -- although it's a pretty tired and well-worn metaphor, I'm gonna go with "body". ;)

[starla]

Or, we could use the analogy of a body?

I Cor 12:20 What we have is one body with many parts, each its proper size and in its proper place. No part is important on its own.

See, I'm just going to have a major issue with the community or leadership being given the same "leg" as God, ie, Holy Spirit. It seems, to me, that we should be resting our entire community, leadership and all, in his grace, with his wisdom. He needs to be the base, not a 1/3 of the stand.

I also am going to have a problem with an analogy that has leadership "holding" up the church. Is it more important to make coffee or watch kids? Speak on Sunday morning or pray? Doubters? Teachers?

Who makes the community more of a church those who lead or those who serve?

[Brian]

We knew Starla and Brian were of one flesh. Apparently they're of one mind too.

[bob hyatt]

All analogies break down and all the pictures of the church are accurate in some sense to portray certain aspects... I certainly didn't mean for
a. "Stool" to replace "body"
b. To imply that either community or leadership is coequal with the Holy Spirit!
:)

But let's go with body, because that works as well...

The whole body is tasked with staying healthy and fighting off infection. Some parts of teh body, though have specialized roles in that task. If we say that white blood cells play a particularly important role in fighting off infection, do we downplay the value of red blood cells, or hair folicles, or the eyes? I don't think so.

Think subset, here...

Let's go back to the stool (I like the stool).
Who's responsible for the artistic expression of the evergreen?

Well, the whole community.

But within that, there are a couple of subsets that play a particular role.

There's the actual artists who express the hearts of the people to God and the heart of God to the people.

And there's the teaching pastor and worship pastor who help guide that process, give it nudges and suggestions, etc.

The three legs that hold up the stool of artistry at evergreen are:
The community as a whole
The particular artists who have stepped forward
the teaching and worship pastor who help guide the process...

And Brian... before Starla said anything you were all "well said!" How now brown cow? :D

[Drew]

Yeah, good string. I was going to jump in on all this business, but you guys all seemed to have captured it pretty well.

The only problem I have with "the stool" is that you can't see the macro-function of it. In other words, you have three legs to balance the seat of the stool, but who sits on it? I know, I know, it all breaks down eventually. The body is better because the macro-function is there. Like I said, good string.

Starla, you've got some game, you were well-spoken, direct, and loving. That's hard to pull off.

[Brian]

Bob: How now brown cow? Easy. I'm a peace lover. And what's that thing about 2 are better than 1. If you come over to the Goff way, Bob, a cord of 3 strands isn't easily broken. :)

Drew: Indeed. Another reason to think Body.

[Brian]

And I got mine in before Starla got hers in (:42 versus :49).

[starla]

Sorry to go ape on your analogy. Although no analogy is perfect...it seems that we should not be raising leaders or those who take more initiative to hold greater weight in the church. So, I will concede the stool analogy only if those who make coffee get their own leg...and those who volunteer to work with kids...and those who pray...and those who make mashed potatoes for the bridge...

Drew: Thanks. I usually don't have a problem being direct, its the other stuff I worry about.

[bob]

it's cool- but don't lose sight of the fact that with this analogy I'm specifically speaking of the job of keeping the community on track and the interplay/role of the Holy Spirit/whole community/leadership...

The people who make coffee don't play a specific role in that particular scenario, other than being a part of the community as a whole.

Now, if you want to talk about who helps us have quality coffee on Sundays, that's a whole different stool!
Speaking of which, the coffee pot is jacked up and we need a new one. Who's gonna get that?
:)

[starla]

Same argument. Think of it this way. I have learned more about God from Jeannie than from your teachings over the last few months. Grant has corrected my theology more than any of the elders. Sarah had encouraged me more to love the poor...I can go on. So, yes, the person who makes coffee each week may have a greater influence in our community to "keep it on track" than the worship leader. Each are connected to God and responsible to listen and to follow him. No one is greater than the other.

In the end, leaders will be judged at a higher standard. But, that begs the question. What will they be judged on? Balance? Correctness of theology? Where is the track?

(Do you need me to buy a coffee pot for evergreen?)

[bob]

Yes- that would be cool!

But... that those people have done those things is wonderful. They do it as part of their very valuable role as the "community" leg. That doesn't abrogate the responsibility of the "leaders" subset of community. And in this particular instance/stool, the subset of community that makes coffee has no specialized role/responsibility...

this is a silly conversation to have in comments :)

[Drew Caperton]

Silly, yes, but also fun.

I honestly think Bob and Starla might be talking past one another a little. Starla wants to macro the analogy, Bob wants to micro it.

[starla]

it is silly...

I think where we are talking past each other is...I don't see much difference between the conduct of a leader and the conduct of a participant. The only difference is higher accountability on judgment day. I don't see how that translates to different responsibility.

It really falls right in line with the conversation we had about men and women. If you have a complementarian view--how does that operate differently when a wife is equally concerned for the spiritual well being of the family? finances? Does she somehow share less responsibility to care for the well being of the family? Really, the goal is for both partners to function for the good of the whole.

I have a responsibility to love God and love other. I have a responsibility to communicate the love of God to others and to share truths. Simply becase I do not hold a position or title, I am no less responsible--even if my sole job is to buy a coffee pot this week.

So, my argument is both micro and macro.
This is really the same argument we've already had about marriage...