Some thoughts for Mark Driscoll

Dear Mark,

Wow.

When you step on a scene, you really know how to make an entrance, don't you? For a couple of years, everyone involved in the emerging church conversation/blogosphere has been wondering "where is Mark Driscoll?"
And bang- you don't just start a blog... you open up with both barrels.
I have to give it to you, you really know how to stir the pot.

But I have a couple of things I've been thinking about this last week, and I probably need to just get them out, so bear with me, if you would.

Since no one else seems to want to say this, I guess I will. You come off as obssessed with numbers. You mention them every chance you get. And while I'm glad that you now refer to your church as "one of" the biggest in Washington, rather than "the biggest" (sermon, 11.13.05), since that title really goes to Crossroads church in Vancouver, I'm still amazed at how often numbers pop up in your writing. You've been blogging for a very short time now... But in that time you've told us how big your church is, how big and fast growing your friend's churches are, how you've had lunch with some really big names, how many churches you've planted, how many times your sermons have been downloaded over this last year, the fact that your church is among the 60 fastest growing and 25 most influential in America, etc, etc, etc...

I'm left wondering what you are really trying to accomplish.

But as concerned as I am with all that, your recent piece responding to Brian McLaren's thoughts on homosexuality takes the cake... and also leaves me wondering just what it is you are trying to accomplish.

With a rapier wit, you managed to insult your former "acquaintances" (Really? Doug's not even a friend anymore?), slip in a nice insult regarding Doug's views on sexuality (which, thankfully was edited out after initially being published, most likely due to the extremely offensive nature of suggesting that people in Doug's vicinity should lock up their livestock) and completely miss engaging with McLaren's ideas at all.

Mark, you are standing at a crossroads right now. Down one road lies all kinds of applause and kudos from a lot of people who already agree with you. They'll slap you on the back every time you lash out at "those who drink from the toilet of emergent theology" and they'll high five you every time you put another "limp wristed" "homo-evangelical" in his place. Your stock among the Truly Reformed will rise... and those who identify in any way, shape or form with the emerging church conversation will write you off completely as an obnoxious, arrogant ass. The young preachers you supposedly want to influence will miss what you are saying to them because of the way that you are saying it to them.

But down the other road is actually having an influence on all the people and churches you claim to be so concerned about.

And the difference between taking one road or another lies primarily in your ability to control your tongue.

Sure, we all know Jesus had some harsh words for people like the Pharisees. We all know that at times, sarcasm is appropriate and even useful. But I have to tell you, if you want to have the impact you say you want to have, you are going to have to set aside the need to appear clever, to score with the zinger, and speak the truth in love. It's interesting to me that James' admonition about our tongues comes in the context of a warning to teachers: "Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged by God with greater strictness. We all make many mistakes, but those who control their tongues can also control themselves in every other way." Man to man, Mark, I have to tell you that God is not only going to judge you on the correctness of your doctrine, but also on the way you present it and how you interact with others over it. This is something I myself am learning these days...

I want you to be a voice in the emerging church. It needs you. But in order for that to happen, you'll need to stop throwing bombs. Clanging cymbals may get noticed, but ultimately, they accomplish little.

Please stop insulting your friends, please heed the words of the Bible you quote to answer others "...in a gentle and respectful way. Keep your conscience clear."

Please speak the truth in love.

Bob.

Comments

[Mike]

Bravo.

I don't know about the numbers thing...I haven't listened to enough of those messages to know.

I echo the last part of your post though. Mark is a needed voice. I know he has done amazing things in Seattle with Mars Hill. He truly loves Jesus and wants to see an entire culture redeemed and transformed.

But it does make it harder to have dialogue when he uses some of the words he does.

Thanks for your transparency Bob.

[Clint]

Bob,

Maybe Mark is obsessed with numbers. Maybe he is kinda like a loose cannon sometimes. Maybe he shoots his mouth off sometimes. Maybe all of what you say is, in fact, true about the guy and what he's done. I don't know.

But I do have one problem with your initial post--seems to me, that somewhere around Matthew 18, somebody said something about approaching a brother privately first if you have an issue with him.

If you are truly that concerned for him and his ministry, instead of doing it this way, then go see him personally first and dialogue--in person, in private. Don't rush out and let the whole world in on your concerns first. There is a very clear procedure for these kinds of issues.

I used to pastor a church that couldn't--or wouldn't--get that concept down. When they had concerns about my leadership, they never came to me, but instead talked to each other about me. That was like a cancer that killed the church, and it ended up closing down. To me, what you've done on this blog smacks of the same thing.

Don't give the rest of us a black eye in the eyes of the world by doing it this way. From my perspective, you're more concerned about being "right" than actually doing it right.

That's what I have to say anyway.

[bob]

Clint- Don't underestimate these factors-

1.No one can get through to Mark. Try finding an email affress for him on his website. Call Mars Hill. Ask for him. See what happens. No one can get through the wall of personal assistants. Not Doug Pagitt, not me.

2. This isn't a sin issue in my mind... it's a tact issue. A wisdom issue. A just plain common decency issue. Maybe it's a sin for Mark, but that wasn't how I was approaching it.

3. I think it's okay with a public statement like Mark's to have a public response.

[Clint]

Hi Bob,

That is a tough issue. I have to admit that about a year ago I went to Mars Hill and later, tried to email Mark without success.

I didn't email him over anything major, just wanted to dialogue with him about emergent church stuff, so I didn't feel too bad about it at the time. Whatever.

I understand your point--if he posts comments publicly, then a public response may be called for.

But, again, Matt. 18 doesn't say that if you can't get ahold of the person in question...to take it public?

[Clint]

As I said on Joe Thorn's blog, I'm out for a while. If it seems like I'm too intense, you're probably right, but there's a whole lotta reasons for that.

Later on Bob, God bless.

[Kelly Phelps]

I have spent too many years in a self made hell fueled by drugs and sex and violence. My older brother, 1 older nephew and one neice are completely smitten by Driscoll. None of them, as I suspect is the case with Driscoll, have ever fallen that far down in to sin.

My older nephew is attending Seminary in Boston Mass. He attended a Driscoll led conference. At the conference Driscoll gave a lecture about sex in the marriage and during that lecture gave a very graphical description to a room full of strangers about how his wife, and I quote "will ride him while fingering her clit until orgasm." So now if I go to church there how can I ever not be affected by what he said, even if second hand.

I have met some of my youger nephew's friends who regularly go to hear Driscoll speak while fried on Marijuana. Clearly his words lend more to a good "trip" then to the conviction of a sin wracked soul. How in the world can anyone go to church stoned and not come out feeling totally guilty?!? And they do this all the time for the fun of it.

To be willing to use foul language during sermons as my older brother has confirmed Driscoll does now and then does nothing more than add to what me, my wife AND MY DAUGHTER already hear in an already godless world. If I use a foul word even one time my daughter, because she loves me, will automatically think it is OK - it is not, period!!!!

There is danger in being too much in the world.

Evangelism is not a new fad that has to be reinvented or re-emphasized (or emerged) for the sake of ones own ego. It is merely the act of Christ's love moving one to go unceremoniously, as an example, to a jail cell full of some hellish folks like I once was and introduce Christ's Words to those who would hear.

[bob]

whoa...

[bob]

I gotta tell ya... I got no idea what to do with that!

[johnsmulo]

Bob,

This is a very interesting post and comment section. I hadn't checked out your blog when this first came out, so I'm glad the comments drew me to it.

I'm curious, have you ever had any feedback from Driscoll on any of the posts you've written?

[bob]

No- sure haven't... Though when he keeps complaining abot "bloggers" in his sermons, I have a feeling he's sending an imprecatory thought/prayer or two my way :)

Kelly- wow... I hear what you are saying. I think Mark is at times very, very incautious with what he's saying. I know they intentionally don't record some of their talks for men only and now I think I know why.

That being said, regardless of the audience, I think there's provocative and then there's just plain dumb and unwise and needlessly prurient and if that's really what Mark said, I think it's the latter and not the former...

God help us all (myself included) to reign in our tongues and not needlessly hinder what God wants to do in people's hearts because our attempts at humor or "relevancy" or "rawness" get in the way...

Having attended Mars hill several times I really enjoyed and felt like Mark and the church were alive. Wanting to share this with my husband ( who is an atheist) he said he would go. Long story short Mark brought up the subject of the stranger and casuul encounters the whole bit which Ive never heard him talk about. ANd how it is to be a man and a women.
My husband walked out. And it made me question not only the church, but my own beliefs.

[Ken]

Bob,

Hey man. I don't know you, but you seemingly care about the impact Mark will make on this generation of church changers (we need to change the church for the church to change the world.)

Recently, I decided that I wouldn't spend more time talking (or blogging) to any human being about a particular subject than I had already spent talking with God about that same subject.

I pray that you would spend as much time praying for Mark as you do with this blog site. If you do and I'm sure you will, the change you wish to see in Mark will surface.

I feel like you really wish the best for God's church. May the LORD richly bless you in your efforts to build His Kingdom.

Our Future Is Bright,

Ken

[Thea]

Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgement on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you - who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:11-12

I am not a mega member nor am I emergent. I'm just one of those baby boomer boring Lutherans in a traditional church. It's amazing to find a site where the traditional church isn't being attacted.

Hello Guys, can you hear me? Why do I feel so much anger vibrating from these sites? I thought (at least we're being told at our church) that the emerging conversation wants to embrace the world and make it a better place for all. Why do I get the impression that if I don't worship at the Church of the Apostle's (my closest EMC), that I am not worthy and definatly don't get it?

Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality. Bless those who persecute you, bless and do not curse. Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. Romans 12:9-16

If everybody stepped down a notch or two and edified each other instead of declaring blog wars, life could be truly one for Christ.

[bob]

Amen!
I hope that's what you hear in this letter to Mark...

[Shannon]

All I've got to say is that I thank God everyday for Mark and the sanity he's speaking into the 'emergent' movement. As part of the Emerging Church conversation (I guess I'd fit the 'missional' part, and am really researching the post-modern theology of Radical Orthodoxy), everytime I hear Mark I scream "Amen" and I've been spreading his books around to every 'religious' pastor I can find to shake them and let them see the need to come to terms with their culture. Yeah, Mark mentions #'s too much as of late, but the rest of his message is solid and right on. We need more folks like him and Matt Chandler.

[Drew]

I have been hearing more and more about the emerging church movement and then read Mark Driscoll's comments. I guess I was a little disappointed in him. What you may ask? It was the coarseness of his language. He called himself a "male lesbian" something which has been used in crude and coarse jokes among Hetro men longer than Mark is old. While funny showed a lack of sensitivity for women who are in this life style, a life style he hopes to reach with his message.

In all this though I really appreciated his apology, it does show that maturity is growing within him. Something we all need to keep striving for.

[Ross Royden]

I am somewhat new to this debate between two emerging strands in the church. Perhaps it's being in Hong Kong. I only came across Mark a few days ago on-line and was both impressed and worried. Impressed by the passion and ideas and worried about the homeosexual jibes and references to numbers. I hadn't realized till I came across your blog that he had apologized for some of the remarks. Not an easy thing to do.

I have been rethinking my own position recently in my own blogs. You guys are having an extremely important debate. Please keep it up and keep it gentle.

God bless!

[Casey Sullivan]

Bob,
I can appreciate parts of your post… As for Marks words both specifically in this case and in general, like all good information, if taken out of context to the rest of the message it can appear to be a bit of heresy. This I feel is one of the biggest issues in the blog world. This is my first time ever writing on a blog but I have indeed read many on the subject of my church Mars Hill and my pastor Mark Driscoll. Most of the blogs I have read have been accurate information… but when taken out of context can create a completely different message. Does this make sense? This is true with much of the bible as well…

On the subject of numbers, if you just hear the part of his sermon that he preaches ALL of the time saying, we are one of the fastest growing churches in the least church city in the least churched state in the least churched region of the country... you would indeed begin to wonder why in the world he keeps bringing up numbers... The nice thing is that all you need to do is keep listening and you will find out why he brings this stuff up ALL of the time. If you listen to an entire sermon or better yet if you listen to all of his sermons it will bring context to pieces of individual sermons, and you will begin to understand that his heart is good, his motives are pure, his doctrine is sound and the issue on numbers is not at all related to being a mega church for mega church sake… The message is this; we need to reach as many lost people as possible. More numbers mean more people are being reached. Pretty simple right? Most pastors that preach numbers are really just preaching about dollars. They always talk about people because they see dollar signs attached to each person… at Mars Hill this just isn’t the case at all. This is all about salvation. This is all about reaching the lost. This is all about Jesus transforming the city and he says every sermon that this success is more like a kite caught in Jesus’ great windstorm because there is no way Mars Hill and/or Mark could do this on their/his own. If you read any of his books or listen to most any of his sermons you will hear more of a self degradation in the sense that he always says that Jesus uses lug nuts like him to make sure that when there is success, we all know who made it happen. I can tell you positively from a guy that has listened to most all of his sermons that he is not about numbers for ego, money or fame… he is about numbers for Jesus and saving the lost. It is that simple. This is a big city that needs Jesus desperately

As for issues such as Mclaren… I can relate to some of his antics being a little brash… the good news is that being a Christian isn’t about being perfect and again every week he speaks on his own sin and his own repentance. In this case he has recanted his words as well as had a humble repentance. If that is good enough for JC, it should be good enough for a bunch of bloggers… On the subject he was speaking of, it is high time that pastors decide which direction they are taking their churches. These pastors are accountable for the condition of their church and to just have a bunch of happy people running around their church without upset feelings isn’t at all in the best interest of A. Jesus , B. their salvation or C. and very importantly the condition of their church. Sometimes pastors have to man up and deal with tough issues and put a stake in the ground. There are of course issues with different degrees of importance and some being less important than others, but dealing with issues of sex and marriage are huge huge issues that need to be dealt with in a biblical way. If we fail with these issues much of the remaining issues fall with it. Also, God is not looking for us to merely be happy but rather holy. All pastors need to deal firmly with issues of sex and family. In this case with Mark sort of lashing out, I kind of see it as both his right and his calling to do so. To form a bit of an analogy try to think back on one of those wonderful moments when your brother or sister kept making the same mistakes over and over again. At first you say stop, then you get sort of tough about it and maybe yell STOP, and sooner or later you just want to grab their arm, shake them a bit and say Enough! You have to stop doing this. And when the sin keeps going and they just won’t listen haven’t we all been a bit sarcastic in an almost last ditch effort to connect with them. Sometimes I have even tried patronizing my sisters, or almost making fun of their ideology around certain issues… Can you resonate with this? Have you been there before when it seems so crystal clear and you just want to grab your brother/sisters arm and shake it out of them? That would also be a sin, but when we are passionate about our biblical clarity it is altogether frustrating to have people that are very well intended and very smart and influential not take a stand for the things that matter most. For Mark, I believe that he is a totally prayerful man and spends a lot of time connecting with Jesus/God and praying for the issues at hand. I also think that it has become crystal clear for him that the sinning will just not stop with this sort of passive approach to helping everyone feel better. As in the days of Noah where Noah preached and preached and tried to get people to follow God, almost no one would listen and almost everyone suffered. Happy people can’t swim any better than unhappy people and we need to heed the stories of Noah. Although well intended, the happy path leads to the same place we are today, sort of like a treadmill and if you sit back and watch long enough (which I believe Mark has and does) at a certain point you would just want to say ENOUGH. This treadmill isn’t going anywhere, something needs to change. Maybe I will try yelling to see if that works… I think we need to stop making sure we aren’t hurting Gods people and rather make sure we aren’t hurting God. If we have to choose between hurting Gods feelings or Gods people’s feelings, I think we would all agree it is Gods people that need to be upset, not God.

Dealing with sexuality, one of my best friends in the world is now gay and I love him dearly. In business I would say that at least 50% of the men that I work with are gay and living in Seattle many many of the people I live with, work with, run into socially are gay. The question that I hear so often is this, why do you Christians think being gay is so bad/sinful. And typically they proceed on some rant discussing our Christian Hypocrisy. Sound familiar? The issues with sex are that anything outside marriage is a sin. Mark beats this drum all of the time. It isn’t as though he is at the pulpit calling all gay people sinners like they are bad and we are good. Oh no… All sexual sin is the same whether it is sex before marriage, shacking up, watching porno, masturbation, lusting, adultery, et cetera. It is all a sin except for sex in the context of marriage. One of the major differences in sexual sins is that some are very transparent and some are not. I don’t know if you are lusting or watching porno, but I would know if you are gay. I wouldn’t know necessarily if you we sleeping with a girlfriend but I would know if you were gay. The issue of gayness is just so in our face and such an obvious issue to deal with. But, it isn’t worse than the others, it is just easier to deal with and much easier to point out. Does that make sense? The issue is not whether I should be able to keep lusting and my friend needs to stop being gay, rather we both need to quit being sexually immoral and both sins are equally as bad. It all needs to be dealt with. If we keep having pastors say that sex is not that big of a deal I think we are in real trouble. Sex is a big deal. It is inextricably connected to our heart and our minds and the ramifications of our sexual sin live on and on if there is not repentance. It seems to me from reading your blog that you too don’t feel that sex is that big of an issue "those who drink from the toilet of emergent theology". The goal for any good biblical pastor (like Mark) is not to impress a bunch of other pastors in this type of agreement. If you believe something to be a sin, even if it means that the other pastors “will miss what you are saying” should you just accommodate? I don’t think it is Marks role to bring these pastors theology to God, I think it is Mark’s role to bring God’s theology to these pastors. The worst thing we could have is a bunch of “young preachers” running around with bad theology, especially if they are gifted and influential. If they don’t want to hear biblical truth and if they don’t want to preach it, hopefully they won’t be influenced by Mark to help grow their church and their ministry. If they grow in the wrong direction I believe that is worse for the faith than it is better. That last thing Christianity needs is more in your face hypocrisy. Does that make sense? Of course hypocrisy will still happen because that is the human condition, but the difference is how we deal with the sin. Do we repent or do we say that it isn’t a sin to justify our behavior? We all need strong Christian brothers to deal with our sin appropriately and not gloss over it at the first sign of other people not approving our work. If it is biblical, that is all we need to worry about. Right?

Next, dealing with all of this in public… Look, I have heard your position on trying to “get ahold of him” by phone or email or whatever… but, at the end of the day the things you said and the things you did (sins of commission) and the things you didn’t do (sins of omission) are just as bad as anything he has ever said. You sort of hid parts of your Sinicism with these mock pep talks as though you have a voice to give him encouragement when the sentence before you call him an “arrogant ass”. Now… it sounds like you too are at a “crossroads” and I can tell from the overall theme of your blog that you are a well intentioned guy that like Mark have said and done things that are certainly not biblical or brotherly. It seems to me that you have a heart for this issue and you probably don’t like the idea of people you respect being attacked. I don’t either as you may have noticed. I just think that the real issue here is sin and that we all have it and we all need to deal with it. We need to look sin in the eye for what it is and quit skipping over the parts of the bible that we don’t like or that doesn’t make us feel good. All sexuality outside of marriage is a sin and all preachers that won’t read or acknowledge this theme in the bible are all sinning. And those of us who don’t heed biblical truth in dealing with issues are sinning, and those of us who don’t speak the truth in love also are sinning. The bad news is that we are all bad; the good news is that we can all repent and deal with our sins. We just can’t keep justifying our sins by saying (quoting Mclaren) “The question of humanity is inexorably linked to sexuality and gender. Issues of sexuality can be among the most complex and convoluted we need to deal with. It seems to me that the theology of our history does not deal sufficiently with these issues for our day. I do not mean this a critique, but as an acknowledgement that our times are different. I do not mean that we are a more or less sexual culture, but one that knows more about the genetic, social and cultural issues surrounding sexuality and gender than any previous culture. Christianity will be impotent to lead a conversation on sexuality and gender if we do not boldly integrate our current understandings of humanity with our theology. This will require us to not only draw new conclusions about sexuality but will force to consider new ways of being sexual.”

Not to pick on Mclaren because there are far worse pastors, ALL pastors that are calling themselves Christian need to deal with their congregation’s sins, repent of their sin, preach about Jesus, and use sound biblical truth rather than float in the wind with cultural norms. These sins were just as alive two thousand years ago as they are today and they all can be addressed biblically. The bible certainly hasn’t been passed up by culture. That is just plain silly…

Thanks for listening… sorry so long.

God Bless,

Casey

[bob]

Casey- did you notice the date on this post? (Jan 27, 2006)

A lot of water has gone under the bridge. Don't forget- this was written before Mark repented of his words, in response to comments he made publically.

I'm glad he apologized. It was the right thing to do.

But to say I somehow sinned in writing this is silly- particularly without telling me how.

[bob]

And by the way... I listen to A LOT of Driscoll via podcast. His talk about numbers is still disturbing. Attendance is the wrong measurement for the growth and good a church is doing. Just ask Joel Osteen :)

I know a lot of people are meeting Jesus through Mars Hill.

I just don't need to hear the statistics so much to be thankful...

Mark really needs to re-think this.

[casey]

Bob,
Yes I know when it was written. Someone just emailed this blog to me yesterday, and I have scene it many many times on other blogs as a cross reference. Although the original blog was written a long long time ago, people are still reading it and they are still forming their opinions based on your orig blog.

As for the sin part, maybe my blog should've been a bit longer so I can detail the sin. I figured painting in broad strokes the way I did would sink in. Maybe you didn't sin after all. Unless calling a pastor and arrogant ass, writing a bunch of crap about him in a blog with the intent to spread rumors and malicious information about him, maybe it is a sin to not handle this stuff privately and biblically, maybe it is a sin to now give a quick jab to Joel Osteen, maybe it would be a sin to judge Marks enthusiasm to the number of people at are being saved in his church, maybe it is a sin to criticize everything a man is doing that has committed his life to the church and Jesus' mission, maybe it is a sin to always be right, maybe it is a sin to say that you hadn’t sinned? Maybe not... maybe you never sinned. I'll recant on my calling you a sinner, maybe I was wrong and that isn't for me to decide right?

[bob]

Right.

Thanks for the comment.

[momos]

you always have to have the last word don't you bob (I'm expecting an answer to this).

another thing, you just love it when people apologize... is that some fetish you have?

everything that casey said was a truthful attempt in love to try to correct your backwards thinking. if casey didn't believe what they said to be true, they obviously wouldn't have said it. A sarcastic apology isn't an apology at all, and i don't think your ignorance warrants one.

i notice that you didn't have much to say after you were disproven time, and time again. prehaps that had something to do with a flaw in your thinking.... no, that couldn't be it, you're never wrong because... because.

if you could get over your self-serving egotistical disorder you arrogant ass, maybe you could live a full life that jesus intended for you (john 10:10) rather than criticizing sombody who is doing the best job that he can do to serve the gracious god who gave him a full and blessed life, and who created you. and start prasing god yourself, i have yet to hear you say one thing that is instructive in the path of god that was laid out in the holy bible. maybe that's the reason that you feel free to criticize... because you haven't produced any fruits that people have criticized yet. maybe marks fruit have some minor blemishes on them, but at least he's producing. what have you done?

you may say "nobody can judge me but god" jesus can! jesus is god! and he gave you a study guide for the test that we will all take one day because is a loving and careing and compassionate god. he doesn't say "good luck" he says "here is the answer, here i am" i want to give you this gift.

so, rather than trying to bring down people in the same genre as mark driscoll, abraham lincoln, billy graham, mother teresa ect., ect., ect., ect. you could use your efforts, however sad they may be, to correct people who are actually wrong.

[bob]

Abraham Lincoln?

Congrats... that's about the nuttiest comment anyone has ever left on my blog!

Good job!
:)

[Dan Brown]

I don't know, Bob... that bit about masturbation being the same as adultery was up there as well.