Practicing the Disciplines is a sign of Spiritual IMmaturity...

Scot McKnight got me thinking... Those who say every follower of Jesus should be practicing the spiritual disciplines (things like fasting, prayer, meditation, giving, etc) as a matter of course are wrong. They are not a requirement. The are not a sign of spiritual maturity. In fact, in a real way, practicing the disciplines is a sign of spiritual immaturity.

The spiritual disciplines are unnecessary if you love God and love your neighbor. The problem is...none of us do that as we should.

The disciplines do not measure spirituality and their practice is not an end in itself. If the point of following Jesus is to be in renewed relationship with God and with others, to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself, and if the disciplines are meant to lead us into being better followers of Jesus, then: The disciplines are meant to lead us into a deeper love of God and a deeper love of our neighbor.

In a way, the more we love God and the more we love our neighbor the less we will need the disciplines, in so far as what the disciplines give us becomes second nature and more and more a matter of our character and less and less a matter of our will.

So... should I be practicing the disciplines? Depends... do I love God as I ought? Do I love my neighbor as I ought? No? Then I should be practicing the disciplines.

But it seems as though that leads us back to where we started, doesn't it?

No, because it sends us through the grid of WHY... and perhaps more importantly, it keeps us from seeing our fasting, our giving, our meditation as some sign of spiritual greatness, rather than a concession to our spiritual poverty.

Comments

[Alan Hartung]

Interesting take on the disciplines.

One thought, though, is that Jesus practiced the disciplines throughout his earthly ministry. We know that Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, so there's an element of maturation to his life (though it seems strange to think of our Lord as immature at any point).

I think, though, that while formation is a primary part of spirtiual disicplines, it's not the only part. Sometimes, they should be practiced just to spend time with God through their unique activities. Not as a goal or a tool, but as something you do with the God you are in love with.

[bob]

I don't think it's so much that Jesus practiced the disciplines as He simply became who He was and then did what was natural.
In other words, we practice the disciplines to experience character change, to change what we would naturally become into something different, something more like Jesus.
He simply grew up. He did what came naturally. When it says "He grew in wisdom and staure and in favor with God and man" I don't think it's quite the same thing as saying that I am growing more loving or more prayerful, etc. I am having to move from a deficit to a positive.

I think

:)

[Bluebeard]

I agree Bob... the only discipline the man really needs is the one of meditation.
Take care
Bluebeard

[jason]

amen to most of that. my arse is still sore from Dallas Willard.

[Dave]

I never exhort my people to do those things anyway, if they love Jesus, follow him and know who they are in him, they will want to do those things. Otherwise they will just do them to obey me - now that is futility

[Nathan Myers]

Bob,

I respect the intent of your post, but I think it was obscured first by the title and second because the post came off as "Don't worry about the disciplines...just love God and your neighbor more." I agree that we should love God and neighbor more and define our lives by this, but it seems more than a bit reductionistic to me that we talk down about the disciplines because of the danger of lording our lives and our approach over others. The reality (by my estimation) is that a vast majority of the folks in our churches have no idea what the disciplines are even about, and reading your post as one of these folks, I'd be tempted to not even look at them...the reality, though, as Foster reminds us, is that the disciplines are meant to provide freedom and greater intimacy with God and others in our lives. Isn't that a goal to strive towards?

I may be quibbling here, but the comments of "Dave", "Bluebeard", and "jason" lead me to think that your post comes off different than you wanted it to.

[Drew Caperton]

Bob,

It seems like Bluebeard and Dave didn't really read your post, just your title.

Good stuff on the disciplines. In fact, Foster seems to be saying the same thing in the very first chapter of the book [if I remember it correctly]. It speaks of holding the disciplines in the same way you speak of: as a means of "placing ourselves" before God, ready to listen and serve.

You hit the nail on the head. Oh yeah, and GREAT stuff on needing a break. Wonder where I could vacation?

[Dave Lynch]

Sorry Drew, I did read the post and not just the title, we all read things differently, it may not be your comprehension of it, but for me I think I know what is being said.
Doing the disciplines do not lead us to Jesus, it is relationship with Jesus that disciplines our lives. If praying, fasting, giving, mediation etc counted, then Muslims, Buddhists etc would be packing out the book of life, for they pray, fast, give etc a lot more than many christians.
The difference is that many know that they are doing the disciplines (5 times a day to Mecca, or a morning bible meditation), true spirituality is not even knowing you are practising the disciplines. So in fact Jesus is right to say 'don't let one hand know what the other is doing' (giving) and Paul is right to say 'pray without ceasing' for true prayer consists a way of life, prayer is not what we do, it is what we are, our life is a prayer, all day every day, like David's psalms.

[Nathan Myers]

I agree with you Dave, but it seems to me you're missing the point of the disciplines (and what it looks like Bob is trying to say). He's not suggesting the disciplines are bunk...he's suggesting instead that we shouldn't pound others over the head with our "righteous" lifestyle and turn it into another legalism.

Plus, there's a ridiculously massive gulf between Muslim and Buddhist disciplines and Christian disciplines. Without getting deep into the spirit of Muslim and Buddhist disciplines, Christian disciplines are ultimately meant to provide freedom and purpose in a manner the others can't sniff at. I don't deny that our relationship with Christ (should) provide discipline, but a companion dedication on our parts to bear our crosses daily should lead us to seeking ways to grow in length and breadth of love for God and others.

Whereas I respect your ideal that "true spirituality" is not even knowing you are practicing the disciplines, I contend that is impossible without knowing and practicing the disciplines until they become second nature to you. The way in which we have defined Christianity in the West is either "in" or "out" with no built in drive for growth in relationship. The teachings of Jesus are rife with "If...then" clauses that command continued adherence to his teachings if we are to be considered his disciples. The shallow nature of the church surrounding us today should drive us to the examples of those who have gone before us in this life: by nature this leads to the disciplines.

Again, Bob can speak for himself, but he seemed to concede the disciplines are a necessary practice until we attain perfect love. Let me know when you've gotten there on this side of eternity and I'll agree with you...or more likely call you crazy. :)

[Dave Lynch]

Thanks Nathan,

Sorry I am going to curtail my end of this, man I so wish we could discuss face to face, blogging will never replace true physical fellowship. I think to you mis understand me.

Their is no gulf between other faith disciplines and christian ones if that discipline is a means to an end. If the discipline is a response to a divine love then it is different. That is what sets the kingdom of God apart, it is a religion of love (grace) and not law.

Listen, I think we are coming from the same basis but let me stress my point:
I despise religious observance over relationship with the living God, and I believe that a true encounter (ongoing) with Jesus will lead to the disciplines...yet the object is jesus and not adherence to reach Jesus.
I do not think the disciplines are a necessary practice until we attain perfect love, I think even after perfection the disciplines will be necessary, by that I mean things like prayer, but then that depends how we view prayer.
(By the way to put that in context I do not believe perfection is attainable this side of heaven)
For me prayer is not even a discipline, it is dialogue within a relationship based in love, it is the most perfect of all human communication.
By the way who decided what are disciplines?

Peace
Dave

[Nathan Myers]

I sure wish Bob would comment on his intent...while we're waiting, though, I like a good rousing discussion (even if we can't meet face to face).

This certainly isn't the place for a protracted discussion on the interrelationship between faith and works; but as a hint I'd comment that Martin Luther made a catastrophic mistake when he amended Ephesians 2:8 to read, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith ALONE"; I'm sure you're familiar with the Reformation cry of Sola Fide. The only problem is, it's not just about grace all the way down. Of course we must affirm our inability to attain justification by ourselves, and thus God's grace and initiating love made it possible. BUT, and this is a big but, we seem to have ignored the massive number of "If...then" clauses throughout the teachings of Jesus and the promise that awaits in 1 John (repeatedly) and Revelation for those who "overcome."

All this is to say...life in Christ was never intended to be a grace-filled jaunt in the meadow till we face ol' St. Pete someday. Paul makes it clear in Romans 6 that in many ways when we decide to follow Christ, the battle has just begun: both in learning to offer ourselves to righteousness instead of sin, and in equipping ourselves to do battle against the "powers and principalities" of this dark age. Paul talks again and again about striving, training, and dedicating the whole of ourselves to this immense task. The disciplines are an immense tool in the hands of the followers of Christ: they are the practices of those who have gone before us that they have engaged in both to find greater freedom in their lives, greater intimacy with God, and greater power in the struggle.

So, you can clearly see that I disagree with your conclusion. The disciplines are both a response to divine love AND a means to an end. Once we commit ourselves to Christ, it's no longer about thinking we can work ourselves into heaven: it's about subjecting ourselves to the call of Christ, and drawing from the examples of countless Christians who have gone before us.

Religion and relationship are not an either/or...life in Christ involves both. Christ was committed to the discipline of removing himself on a regular basis to spend time in prayer, clearly fasted in the desert, offered his life in an example of servanthood (discipline of service), etc and gave his life as an example of the self-giving, sacrificial love he was calling his followers to. He clearly visited the places of worship on a regular basis...in short, he was a good, religious Jew. He simply lived out the truth that the outward actions should reflect an inner reality (teachings on whitewashed tombs, dirty cups). So we can't simply toss out religious observance in favor of relationship; they're meant to interrelate.

I reiterate...the disciplines are not a means to reach Jesus, but a means to achieve greater intimacy, more full submission, and greater power in the Christian life. And no-one decided what the disciplines specifically are, persay, but the disciplines as pathways have been walked by others before us (characters both Biblical and non-Biblical) and have transformed the lives of those who pursued them with the right goal: discipline brings freedom.

Maybe my perspective sounds less soothing, but I think it's Biblical: it seems to be we must hold in tension many things in our walk: religion and relationship, faith and works, and many others. Life in Christ is no simple animal: the call to love seems simple enough, but fleshed out can be a tough puppy to figure out moment to moment.

[Nathan Myers]

Just as a bit of an outline, Richard Foster's book Celebration of Discipline that has already been alluded to above gives a good outline of some of the disciplines:

The Inward Disciplines: Meditation, Prayer, Fasting, Study

The Outward Disciplines: Simplicity, Solitude, Submission, and Service

The Corporate Disciplines: Confession, Worship, Guidance, and Celebration

In the first chapter, Foster writes, "Superficiality is the curse of our age. The doctrine of instant satisfaction is a primary spiritual problem. The desperate need today is not for a greater number of intelligent people, or gifted people, but for deep people. The classical Disciplines of the spiritual life call us to move beyond surface living into the depths. They urge us to be the answer to a hollow world..."

And in a footnote at the bottom of the first page, he writes, "You may be wondering why the Disciplines described in this book are termed "classical." They are not classical merely because they are ancient, although they have been practiced by sincere people over the centuries. The Disciplines are classical because they are CENTRAL to experiential Christianity. In one form or another all of the devotional masters have affirmed the necessity of the Disciplines."

Robert Webber's book title "Ancient-Future Faith" I think sums up the passion Christ is calling all his followers to...an appreciation for the roots and stories of the past, and contextualization of these stories in lived-out faith today. In Matthew 13, Jesus remarked,

"Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old."

Christ is doing a new thing today, but living in the new does not involve a sense of disdain for all that has come before.

[Dave Lynch]

Thanks Nathan
I must read Fosters book again, thanks for your responses, they are good and I will try and respond when I get chance.

Dave

[Barry Carroll]

Interesting discussion. How about turning the cube and looking at a different side.

Tiger Woods is a great golfer. If we had the skills he had we might think we needed not to practice the golf disciplines. However, it is my understanding Tiger practices his disciplines like no other golfer and therefore is like no other golfer.

So it is with us. The disciplines help us to draw near to God. God promises to draw near back. It lacks humility to think we are "natural" world class Christians. I believe there is no such thing as a world class Christian if we don't practice some type of discipline in our life. However, after years of practicing the disciplines and making them a part of our every day life, we will draw nearer to God and the spiritual fruit that comes from God will ooze out of our pores to the positive attention (glory) of God and to the benefit of those around us because we will be closer to being like Jesus than when we first began.

[shaun]

I know this thread has long since dried up of all conversation on the topic, as the post is well over a year old. I just wanted to add a few thoughts.

I am a college pastor and have spent a few weeks now working a group through the spiritual disciplines.

Now first let me say that I believe the spiritual disciplines to be a vital part of our walk as believers. Not because they are magic, not because we HAVE to do them, but because we are human.

I can't tell you how many of my kids talk to me about different issues and say, "I want to do ________ better in my life, but how can I?" That, to me, is why the spiritual disciplines are so important. Because we can WANT to live that life of closeness with God, but until we actually do something about it, nothing will happen.

Does spending time with our spouses just naturally fit into our busy schedules? No, we make the time because we love them. We discipline our lives to allow for that time.

And those that have talked to me, frustrated about not living the way they feel they should, what do I tell them? Should I say, "Don't try these disciplines because they are just silly religious practices?" Absolutely not!!!!

I have walked them through the disciplines and given them different methods to help implement things in their life. Things they already want to be doing but don't know how.

So yes, sometimes these disciplines start out as just that... disicplines. But with the continued effort of wanting it there, it becomes that natural outflow of love.