why...

...gather?

I got this email from Dallas in Lafayette... he's part of the team planting Vox. He said:

Bob,

Drew and I are reading Organic Church and The Shaping of Things to Come and wanted to invite you into the big question we're circling right now: Why gather? If the "small group" of christians contains everything the body of Christ needs to reproduce and transform society, why get together in large groups on a weekly basis?

How do you answer that question?

Dallas

Good question... I have a lot of thoughts, have been processing this for a couple of weeks and will take it in chunks. I need to get on sermon, so some prelims...

First, here's an excellent talk by Scot McKnight about the relationship of Gospel and the local church. Really, really good stuff with kind of a long intro- but once he gets firing on all four, it's cool...

Second, I don't know if I can go along with "If the "small group" of christians contains everything the body of Christ needs to reproduce and transform society, why get together in large groups on a weekly basis?" It doesn't... at least I don't think so.

(Caution: Everything that follows is definitely unbaked and I'll probaby change my mind about it tomorrow, so... I'm also fully aware that what I'm basically saying is "our way seems to be the best" which EVERYONE believes, right? What I will say emphatically though is that it's not the only valid way, and merely best for us... others are free to conclude otherwise)

I know that "wherever two or three", etc. etc. But this church thing we're doing is iterative. A person can not live in isolation- he or she must be in community to be healthy. A person or couple should have an extended circle (a small group, for lack of a better term). That small group should be connected to a larger group (a local church). That local church should be connected to other local churches. Those local churches should connect to local churches in other locales. And we all need to recognize the universal church, the Body of Christ of which we are a part.

Now- before the house church people get up in arms, I believe in house churches. So what about house churches just being networked? Well, if house churches are really living the Gospel, they will grow, and fold others in. At that point they either split or morph into something different. Most local churches start as house churches (we call 'em "church plants", but 10 people in someone's living room is a house church) that decide to either never split as they grow (unhealthy, at least in my mind) or split at larger-than-house-church sizes. I think the latter is a better choice for those who want to be connected to something slightly larger than the house church.
The other option is, of course, to keep connected relationally as house churches. This usually involves a gathering of some sort, usually once or twice a month. So- they do what most local churches do, just not EVERY Sunday. I think this is a perfectly valid way to do it, and to be honest, since many people are unable for one reason or another to make it to the larger community gathering every Sunday, it's basically the same system as what we have now, just with fewer opportunities for those who want the larger group community or who have crazy schedules. (Having the gathering every week is especially good for those with schedules at the whim of bosses. They'll be able to be there when they can... )

What Dallas seems to be suggesting is to keep connected relationally as house churches, as one Church that exists as a conglomeration of small groups that meet together regularly, but perhaps not very frequently.

I think this is a valid model- however, one sticking point is going to be in how you as a larger body contribute to the world. How you do ministry together with people you are knowing less and less well, not necessarily better and better? Possible, but harder maybe. You'll have to be intentional about getting to know other people in the other house churches. Maybe a regular time together? How about Sunday mornings? Does that work for everyone? :) (Just kidding- anytime would be fine- But I think that regular gathering together is pretty key, whether it's thursday night or Saturday night or Sunday morning.)

So... larger, small, many, few...

For me personally, I want it all.

I want the relationship with God I have as an individual.

I want the relationship I have with God as part of a small group. I want to be open, intimate with them and allow them to teach and shape me.

I want the relationship I have with God as a part of a larger community. I want, not to be intimate with all those people, but friends- in relationship, teaching them and being taught and shaped by them, to a lesser extent than with my small group, but... There's diversity in the Body of Christ for a reason. I'm not in a small group with Brian, but he regularly teaches me. If I wasn't with him regularly, I wouldn't have that opportunity... ditto Erin and Liz and Nathan and so on... I just don't want that group to get so large that it becomes a practical impossibility for me to even know who people are, recognize those who are new, those who are missing, etc.

Back to the initial premise of "If the "small group" of christians contains everything the body of Christ needs to reproduce and transform society, why get together in large groups on a weekly basis?"

I believe in churches remaining small by choice. But just as there is too big, there's also too small. The church of one? Too small :) You and God walking in the woods is good, but it's not church. (It's not church in the same way/for the same reasons me having coffee alone is not community- it may be good time, and needed time, but it's not all I need)

Ten people in a living room? See, here's where it get's dicey. That is definitely church and it's definitely good. It's also definitely less resourced than the larger group, less connected, less diverse. I have a depth of intimacy, but lack a broadness of relationship with other followers of Jesus. Our small group may have some good gifts, but probably will be lacking some as well... And if I'm not regularly connecting to larger group, well... I miss out and so do they.

The gathering of Christians on the first day of the week has been happening literally from the beginning, and for a lot of good reasons, I think. There's some good Scripture on this, which we'll get to in subsequent posts. But for me, it's a balance- staying small enough to know and be known, large enough to have a broad diversity of gifts and callings, but not so large that the tail begins to wag the dog (which is what I think happens over a certain size.)

I guess it comes down to this for me: We gather in small groups to do that which we can't do alone and we gather in larger groups to do that which our small groups cannot do alone. We gather to give to one another emotionally and spiritually, to be taught by our elders and to worship God in diverse community- a community that includes people we are reconciled with, some we are experiencing friction with, new people, old hands, people who need Jesus and people who know Jesus. Biblically, Sunday (or whenever that larger gathering is) is where we connect with that larger-than-our-home-community church- to pool our resources and care for one another, for the poor and most importantly to hear the Word of God in community and worship Him together.

And once more back to the original question- I alone don't have everything needed for the transformation of society. I need others. My small group doesn't have everything needed. We need others. My local church doesn't have everything needed. We need others. Our networks and denominations don't have everything needed- We need others. And most strikingly, even the Church Universal doesn't have everything needed for the transformation of society. She needs Jesus.

My two cents? I think churches have to allow themselves to get big enough to allow a diversity of gifts and backgrounds and temperments and everything else good in us, but avoid becoming so large that people become excessively redundant because their gifts are duplicated 500 times in the body and people have a heinously hard time getting in and being known and knowing others....

Okay- Sorry for the rambling. I have more thoughts, but I need to stop verbally processing. Have I offended everyone now? Big church people can now let me have it as well as house church people :) Also- have I unintentionally penned an apology for denominations????

Comments

[Drew Caperton]

The fact that it took you 20,000 paragraphs to lay this stuff out shows the complexity and magnitude of what we at Vox are dealing with.

In our first year, we tried to contextualize the large gathering to the whole church, instead of the other way around. We felt like we'd planted a service with small groups around it, but none of it felt right. We're making some changes, and we'll keep you updated...

What you wrote in terms of ecclesiological reasoning for gathering in larger groups is good. What has become almost as sticky is the practical outflow of actually doing gatherings.

#1 How much time, energy, resources, people, and money do you invest in gathering? When you gather every week, it seems like it could eat up a lot of it with not much left for anything else, even if you're doing very little of the prep work.

#2 What culture are we setting for our church if more effort is spent on gathering together than on anything else? I realize it's a generalization and some churches might not fit this mold, but I think most do - whether they're organic, post-modern, traditional, or purpose-driven.

I'm mostly sold on gathering, and mostly not sold on gathering every week.

[bob]

yes... lots to say and process...

In terms of how much? Not as much as we used to in the evangelical/megachurch world... Enough that the time matters, gives people a chance to exercise their gifts, that the worship is God-focused and not distracting to those trying to participate... but by no means do I advocate the "show". Yeah- I spend some time on the sermon, but we have a part time worship guy, I spend a couple of hours doing media... others may spend some time on prayer stations. It's pretty much NOT time intensive, you know?

And I'm not sure MORE effort is spent on that- at least by the body in general. I think the MOST effort actually goes where it should- in connecting us to each other and the world through our forum, our service to the poor, get togethers we do- those take the most time, but it's diffused across many people, over many days of the week. The focused nature of Sundays perhaps distorts the perception of what we focus on.

Not to say I, for instance, don't over focus on Sundays- I know I do- but that's a pastor's insecurity/curse. But the focus of our community is not Sunday and we are careful to say that regularly in our communication with the church body.

[bob]

But it is the introduction and front door for many people and I'm unwilling to let that go. I was actually emailing aboutthis with someone who had the same question a couple of days ago... I asked- "How would you have connected to the smaller group without the larger one?" Now, that was true in that persons experience, but not necessarily in everyones. Some come into the body through the smaller groups, some through the larger (the majority through the larger). I want both to be there for whoever needs them...

[Heather]

I don't know, Bob. I'm not a pastor or a church planter, but I do spend indordinate amounts of time wondering what church should look like or what is expected of me.
I think I'd like to see what your thoughts look like when they are fully baked.

[Drew Caperton]

OK, some really good comments and I'd like to keep going with this. Thank you, thank you, thank you, for helping me process this.

About resources being spent, I actually didn't mean to speak of your church specifically. I was making a generalization based on what I perceive to be true. If my generalization is wrong, then consider me educated.

I'm with you on gatherings not having to be time intensive [aside from teaching discussions]. That said, the difference between a couple of hours from your work schedule [40+ hours] and mine [20] is pretty big some weeks. I think we feel it differently right now.

You brought up front doors and introductions and this is central stuff. Simply, what we think "front doors" are for and what they should lead to will determine where we place them. You spoke of how having a gathering every week allows a wide open front door for people to walk in... so that "it could be there for whoever needs them." Right on.

But it still seems like you're placing a higher value on gatherings than need be. You spoke of teaching, illustrating diversity, friendship development, all in an attempt to show the reason for gathering - all of them good and Biblical. A higher value that goes unseen until you start asking, "what if we didn't meet every Sunday?"

The big questions are 1) do large gatherings need to happen every week to accomplish what they need to? And 2) what is the cost [culturally and resource-wise] of doing them every week?

I know these aren't the questions you were going for initially, but it's where I'm at. Thanks for listening.

[bob]

No problem- I think your generalization is generally correct- but when you aren't doing the big rockin' band thing with the lighting and stage director and all, it's just a lot easier to put together a gathering.
I was thinking about this- I think my time gets roughly divided into 2/3rds and 1/3- 2/3rds with people- counseling, doing pre-mairtal, connecting with new people, elder meetings, staff mentoring, admin, home group, stuff like that
1/3 to prep and execution of the gathering, which I see as shepherding/teaching- just everyone at once (incredibly convenient, if you think about it!).

So- This seems like an okay balance to me. In fact, as I think about it (I need to run the numbers to be sure) but it might be more like 3/4 nd 1/4... Between 1/4 of my time and 1/3 of my time spent on shepherding/teaching the community as a whole and the rest devoted to various parts of the community? That seems okay to me.

Doing a weekly gathering isn't killing us- for many who are not involved in home groups (we tell them that homegroups aren't for everyone!), it's their main point of contact with the community and their main point of teaching. I think that's okay. Substantial relationship happens there because we are relatively small and give people the opportunity to hang out for lunch afterwards...

So, for me- I think we need to meet weekly. And I don't feel the cost is out of line for the benefits we get.

Now- for a bi-vocational pastor, unfortunately, the scenario shifts, and I think that's what you guys are feeling... Having to plan and prepare on off hours is a killer... I don't know what the solution for you is, other than to hand off as much of that as you can, rotate teachers, do less prep-intensive stuff more often (communion, etc)... but you are probably doing all that already...

[Drew Caperton]

Bob,

You have been gracious throughout this discussion and I appreciate the ear. I'm also glad we got to have it on your blog so others can read through and be encouraged [or ticked?] by the discussion.

Thanks for the 1/3-2/3 advice. Driscoll actually dispensed some time-mgmt advice during the A29 Boot Camp. For full-timers, break your day up into 5 hour chunks: 7am-12pm, 12-5pm, 5-10pm. Spend one of those chunks with your family [preferably around a meal] and the other two working. It was good perspective... but yours is a little more where I'm at. Thanks.

[bob]

hey- no need for the thanks- thank you for caring what I think!:)

Your community is your community- you guys are free to structure however you feel works for you (within biblical parameters, of course (that's just for my fundy readers!))

Whether it's more of a house church structure with monthly or twice monthly gatherings or the more standard weekly gathering, a long as it's for the right reason, around the right Person, it's all good.
You guys know I just want you to "succeed", that is, to love God and love people, teach the word and feed the poor- how you go about it is secondary.

Good questions to wrestle with, though!