Just when I think I'm out... they pull me back in

I won't comment much on the recent dust-up over Driscoll's video at the 2007 National New Churches Convention.

I will say this, though. I realize that for Mars Hill Church in Seattle, women in elder/pastoral ministry  (or more precisely, not being in elder/pastoral ministry) is in the "closed hand" of issues/doctrines not up for questioning or reconsidering, as opposed to the "open hand" of things over which Mars Hill people can disagree without disengaging. I get that.

I also get that the last time we were together, I heard Mark say specifically that when it comes to relationships/fellowship outside of Mars Hill, women in ministry is an "open hand issue."

What I don't get is Mark's tone-deafness when speaking to a huge group of people that
he knows are all over the map on this issue, including a number of women pastors and church planters. I realize he has his opinions. Boy, does he.
I also know he's smart... and I really don't want to believe that Mark would intentionally poke a stick into a bee hive every few months just to draw some attention. I really don't.

So we're going to go with option 2- He forgets that in terms of relationship with other churches and the Body of Christ as a whole, he's trying to see this issue as an open hand thing about which good Christian people can disagree. And in forgetting, he speaks with perhaps less grace, less care than he should to people who he knows feel very strongly and very differently than him about the issue. In fact, the more he talks about this issue, the more he pushes and pounds it, the more that open hand feels like a closed fist.

And so when someone like Bill Hybels pushes back ever so gently, he really should listen.

Andrew Jones has the whole story here, including some corrections to Mark's take on the story from others who were there.

And the iMonk has the real rebuke to Mark, about one line from this short video that is getting less attention than the whole general issue, a line which I hope was spoken in haste and wothout thought.

Mark's a good guy- but he's tacking further and further to the right. His Jesus is becoming more and more like an ultimate fighter and less and less like the Prince of Peace and that's disturbing. Mark seems also to be making less and less room for any but a certain type of masculinity, and any but a certain type of relating between men and women, and that too is disturbing.

Here's another video that's been making the rounds, as sort of a response. I just want it to be known that the picture of the pastor's wife who HASN'T "let herself go" that comes directly after Mark's quote in the video is a picture of my awesome wife Amy (whose birthday is today!). How she got in there, I don't know... But glad we could contribute!

And then just for, uh... "fun", for the ladies, here's the real deal on women (please do NOT watch this if you have high blood pressure)

Comments

[Aaron Pelly]

Whoa, Bob! That Lucas video...ugh...I normally have low blood pressure...at the moment I think it might only be moderately low! ;-)

I think maybe the worst of it was the pleasure comment a couple minutes in...my thoughts went to the woman in Song of Songs, wondering how she managed to take that much pleasure and still get into the Bible.

On the other hand, poor Lucas! I can't imagine that sex would be that good for a man if his wife wasn't allowed to experience any pleasure in it. What was God thinking, creating the clitoris???!!! Don't Lucas' views on this fit more in line with cultures that practice female circumcision? Um, I think that's as far as I'll go with that.

On the other hand, I agree with Lucas...it's much better when it's only the men who are "pushing, conniving, and politicking for power and for control." It makes a church run much more smoothly when only half the people are exhibiting their sinful, selfish tendencies in a power grab.

Okay, maybe my blood pressure is a tad higher than I thought. Maybe I should pray for the guy now.

[Rachel]

Christians will be beaten and flogged in heaven?!?!? Bob, what is he talking about? Is there any Scripture that says that???

[Makeesha]

Bob, you are so gracious and I appreciate it but I'm starting to really want people to start to call a spade a spade. The main thing I want to point out is that this is a VIDEO - - you can't blame haste on the ill chosen words. In fact, I think we need to stop saying that his words are ill chosen or that he forgets and simply accept that this is what Mark believes...and THAT my friend, is the problem.

[Paul]

Bob -- Maybe it is option 3:

As a CEO of a multi-million dollar business, Mark knows how to market his company & attract attention. After all, there is no such things as bad press, right?

By being provocative, Mark is continuing to garner tons of free advertisment for his business, resulting in increased sales.

[matt]

Paul,

That must be why Mark charges for everything he puts out. Oh wait, he puts everything out for free. Well that's a pretty stupid business practice. Not even Tim Keller does that.

[Athena Pelly]

I need to make apologies for my husband. He was acting harshly and without grace in much of his comment about Lucas' video. While I disagree with much of what Lucas said, Aaron had no right to bash him on such a personal level.
Normally Aaron is merciful and graceful to an extreme that makes me very proud to be called his wife. Occasionally when he feels that I have been attacked, he takes it very personally. I appreciate that he wants to defend me but I cannot abide him defaming another person. It makes him just as much of a bully.
Even though I disagree with Lucas, I am grateful that he seems sincere in his desire to help women to follow their LORD in the way God intended. Lucas' words should be responded to with grace, not animosity.

[jessi]

Of all the MANY takes I've read on this whole thing, I would say this is probably one of the most balanced, and of course, the whole Lucas video brings a touch of humor...which is what we need to bring back into focus that we need to get over ourselves!! Driscoll is the one that has seemed to blow this whole thing into a huge scandal...Hybels was seemingly adding a note of gratitude and appreciation for what women contribute in ministry as well...not even necessarily disagreeing. And there was certainly no personal attack... It seems like the real issue is that Mark's pride was offended and he has reacted...as, from what I've read, has happened in the past, usually followed by some sort of clarification of apology... But I think it really reveals a lot about those of us who get riled up on whatever side... sort of reminds me of "I am of Paul" or "I am of Apollos"...but in modern terms I guess it just looks like "I am of Driscoll" or "I am of Hybels"!! I even read someone saying that Driscoll should sue the conference for all the time/money he put into the video! How does this classify as 'ministry' in any sense of the word? Wasn't the point of the whole conference to equip and minister to church planters? Of all the stuff I've heard and read of what people got from the conference, it's sad that this issue is the most publicized part.

[jessi]

OK, I promise not to say anything more after this (I generally try not to post multiple comments), but this has just been running around in my head all morning...

1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly–mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I follow Driscoll,” and another, “I follow Hybels,” are you not mere men?

5 What, after all, is Hybels? And what is Driscoll? Only servants, through whom you came to believe–as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 Driscoll planted the seed, Hybels watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, God’s building.

I Corinthians 3:1-9

[Paul]

Matt -- You're missing the boat: Mark's business brings in millions of dollars every year. Marketing helps increase that. It doesn't matter if he doesn't charge for everything (though he does charge for some). He's a businessman, a salesman. He's selling something & lot's of people are buying.

So, what's the product?

[Jon]

If you listen to the broad spectrum of Driscoll's work, the "product" seems to be Jesus. Could be worse...

[Kez]

Having not read this post yet, I was watching the video made by Jen of "My True Self" over at Conversation at the Edge. And came to the Mark's Quote and then saw the picture. In my head I said "that's bob's hot wife". So I rushed over to your blog to see if you saw it to find out you have. I think you and your wife should get some royalties or kickbacks. At least a cut of anything she makes off of the video, or some of the Internet traffic.

I want to go on record that I too have a smoke'n hot wife who hasn't let herself go! I don't know Mark, but respect him greatly in many ways. However it seems as if he's a one step forward, two steps back kind of guy. Blessings!

[Rachel]

"Even though I disagree with Lucas, I am grateful that he seems sincere in his desire to help women to follow their LORD in the way God intended. Lucas' words should be responded to with grace, not animosity."

I really admire your gracious attitude, Athena! But after being told that my wonderful savior Jesus, the great liberator of women, is going to FLOG me when I get to heaven, I'm having a very difficult time having a charitable response to Mr. Labrador.

[Jennifer]

Kez....lol, Sure, Bob can have 20% of the money I make from this. I'll send a check for $0.00 right over ;-)

[Paul]

Jon -- yes, Mark does use the word 'Jesus' a lot, but the product he's selling is actually the Mark Driscoll Lifestyle.

Lots of people preach about Jesus, including many with exactly the same theology as Mark. But few have built up such a successful business because they don't have the Mark Driscoll Lifestyle as the real draw.

[tim]

Paul what gives you the right to say that the product Mark is selling is his lifestyle? I really am curious. I mean Jesus seems to be the "big idea" there especially considering all the people meeting him there, and having their lives changed there. I would say the fruit of his ministry would testify that Jesus is central there. I think you are on shaky ground here, and should be cautious of questioning all the fruit and life change Jesus seems to be doing there. Just some thoughts.

[Makeesha]

I don't deny that Mark loves Jesus and desires others to love Jesus. But his representation of Jesus is often a bit wonky in my opinion and there's nothing wrong with me saying so..esp. if you don't think there's anything wrong with Mark suggesting that my representation of Jesus is wonky.

:)

[tali]

as a side note - jesus had the opportunity to raise an army and take the world by force.

according to my bible, he chose another path.

[michael]

bob your line "His Jesus is becoming more and more like an ultimate fighter and less and less like the Prince of Peace" is right on the money.

[Aaron Pelly]

"I'm having a very difficult time having a charitable response to Mr. Labrador."

Yeah, me too, Rachel. My wife is right though; I was way too personal in my comment, and I'm sorry. Jesus does command me to love Mr. Labrador, and responding with a personal attack was not loving.

As my wife finished typing her comment, she looked up at me and gave me some wise advice: "Next time, pray before you post. That way I won't have to spend all this time typing!"

[Jeff]

I think that we need to let go of this notion that church attendance or participation numbers is evidence that Jesus is central. I've been a part of struggling churches where Jesus is obviously central. They don't measure their "fruit" in the same way. They measure it, for instance, by how many people are fed at their community meal instead.

Let's stop setting up this false dichotomy of "big church = doing God's work, small church = forsaken." There are some big churches whose central focus is suspect, there are many small churches where if Jesus was any more central, he'd be physically sitting on people's laps.

[Paul]

Tim -- Your question is not unusual in discussions of this sort; basically you are asking me "What gives you the right to question Mark?" I am curious why Mark's supporters deify him, make him above any reproach.

One thing that struck me when I talked with Mark last November is how much of his identity is wrapped up in the rags-to-riches story of the growth of his church. In the course of two hours he mentioned the size of his church at least half a dozen times. He introduced himself to a roomful of people who knew his story by giving his rags-to-riches story.

Jeff is right, though. Growth does not equal 'Blessed by God'. Not only do we see that truth demonstrated in the book of Judges, but we also see it today in burgeoning growth of many non-Christian religions and cults.

Again, Mark is preaching a particular Kick-Ass Masculine Theology that comes as part of a package a Chauvinism, Certitude, Combativeness, etc. That package, that lifestyle, is what people are buying at Mars Hill. If they were just buying Jesus, there's many dozens of equally biblical churches in the area they could pick from.

Mark desperately needs that Lifestyle to be true; it is his competitive marketing advantage over other churches in the area.

And, it is going to be his downfall, and the downfall of Mars Hill. 40 years from now, is he still going to be talking about how his wife has not let herself go? Or having sex every day, when like many 76 year-olds, he can't deliver and his libido has changed? Or will he be just another anachronism that makes everyone--Christians included--shake their heads and laugh uncomfortably?

Cults of personality rarely, if ever, outlive the personality.

[Jim]

Bob - I would lean towards your conclusion. Mark tends to speak to the greater church as he would his own church. I've listened to virtually all of his sermons and attended MH when I lived in Seattle so I give him the benefit of the doubt when he says something stupid. I've also developed a sense of what's really central to Driscoll's theology and what are simply off the hand comments. But there are times when I hear or read something that is intended for an audience larger than his church and I cringe like I might if I had a crazy uncle making a fool of himself at a wedding. "Sorry, he's not usually like this. You'd understand if you knew him better. He really doesn't feel that way." Driscoll is learning that he has a larger audience - ie. the aftermath of the "pastors wives letting themselves go" scandal and I have definitely seen him grow over the last several years. But he still has a ways to go, like we all do in our own areas.

As to Paul's comment about Mark selling the "Mark Driscoll" lifestyle: Might sound strange coming from a Driscoll fan, but I agree - just not with Paul's implication of motive. One of the things that is so attractive about Mark (but repellent to many) is that he preaches the Bible as he sees it and then tells people how to live in light of it - often providing concrete examples of what a particular aspect of the Gospel looks like in his own life. He says: "Christ is central to my life. Here's what that looks like for me in this area." This is tricky because it's easy for people who agree with Driscoll to adopt his lifestyle without understanding or even caring about the biblical truth behind it or whether or not it glorifies God in their own life. It also makes it easy for people to dismiss what Mark is saying about God/Christ/humanity because it's clouded by his application and rhetoric. It's a fine line that he is walking between attracting a superficial following (which I'm sure there are many of) and pointing people towards Christ, which many people also bear witness to.

[tim]

Paul that is actually not the question I am asking. People have the right to question others, I fully agree with that. My point is I think it is a little arrogant to simply account for all the life change that is going on there as a marking ploy. It is also quite cynical. We can always find ways to rationalize and dismiss what is going on in ministries and church we disapprove of, but why not be generous and humble and believe that maybe, just maybe the Holy Spirit is at work there. That Jesus is being glorified that lives are being changed and that people are becoming new creations in Christ?

Personally I disagree with Mark on a lot of his theology, but I have listened to him quite a bit and can not help but notice how he beat one drum all the time...Jesus. Now it may not be the Jesus you would convey, but he does get to the Cross and to Jesus with every message. He preaches right through books of the Bible and stays close to the Cross.

As far as him telling his "rags to riches" story, I think you are looking at it wrong. Could it be that he is testifying to the glory and power of God to do amazing things in the most unexpected places? After all Seattle is not where you would expect someone to see the a church thrive and many people come to meet Jesus. I have heard him recount this story many times and each time, I saw it as him pointing to the reality of the work of Jesus to build his church in spite of himself, and the circumstances he finds himself in.

And you and Jeff are right bigger does not always mean spiritually better. I go to a church of 200 and believe the Lord is working through us. But do not commit the opposite mistake and miss my orginal point that number s do matter because they are people, and it means that there are lots of people meeting Jesus. And for me that is the bottom line and to which all of us should say praise God.

My point to you Paul is simply watch the judgments when it comes to things you might be wrong about. Mark does have a strong personality, but that does not mean God can not work through that and use it. And be careful to just cynically dismiss what is going on at MH as a masculine marketing plan that will fade away. It is very possible that God is big enough to manifest himself and his presence in ways we do not understand, or for that matter may want to accept.

[Makeesha]

I think Tim that you might be creating just as dangerous a characature of those of us who disagree with Mark as you feel we are creating of him

Mark loves Jesus - no doubt
Mark love his church - no doubt
Mark teaches about Jesus - no doubt

NONE of this means I can't strongly disagree with MUCH of what he teaches nor does it mean I can't call him to the mat on some of his approach and phrases.

He is constantly bringing up the Jesus is not a liberal gay tea drinking hippie verbiage. It's old, it's tiresome, it's offensive and it's embarrassing. Me saying that does not discount any of the above things I already acknowledge about Mark.

Be careful Tim and others that you don't do the exact same thing you are accusing us of doing when you attempt to bring balance or defend Mark.

I don't like the image of Jesus Mark is presenting. period. I have every right to say that and it's not unloving to do so...certainly no more unloving than the comments Mark makes.

I don't like militant machismo.

I don't like being dismissed as a woman church planter.

i don't like the reference to having sex every day that mark seems to think is a benefit of Christianity.

I don't like Mark's comments against gays and liberals

I don't like his ideas about women being subservient to men

I REALLy don't like his ideas about marriage and women's roles and in fact feel they are damaging and do not represent justice.

i don't like his negative references to people who desire to live naturally and in peace.

I feel that when he makes those references as a high profile Christian leader he is a poor representative of my faith.

that is my opinion and it's important to me to share it just as it's important to mark to tell people that he doesn't worship a limp wristed hippie. If he's going to take those positions then he needs to accept the consequences...one of which might be that certain people decide not to distribute his dvd's. and he should man up to it enough not to whine about it.

of course God is big enough to use Mark. he's big enough to use me and all my flaws. That's not in question. Just because we disagree with Mark's approach and some of his ideas doesn't mean we doubt God. That's a very strong and poorly executed logic.

[tim]

Makeesha that only problem is that your accusing me of something I never said. Never once did I say it was not okay for people to comment or have differing opinions than Driscoll. I personally find myself disagreeing with him quite frequently. My point was to Paul was that he should be careful in assuming that just because Driscoll is on the opposite side of him in the issue, does not mean he should not view Driscoll's ministry with such cynicism, and dismiss it as a personality cult. So be careful to read closely before you say people have "poorly executed logic."