Battle of the Mars Hills...

So Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Seattle has now officially called Rob Bell of Mars Hill Michigan (along with Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt) a heretic.

Man... I'm bummed. Not necessarily surprised, but bummed. We all knew what he thought of Brian McLaren... and he hasn't been too charitable to Doug either (goats??), though they were once friends.

I'll listen to the message from the Convergent conference when and if they put it out there and hear what he has to say.
But as of this point- I'm doubtful that Rob is anything approaching "a heretic."

And just for the record... I didn't write this in my pajamas and  don't live with mom :)

Comments

[Mike Clawson]

It's sad to see that Driscoll seems intent on drawing the battle lines and pitting his "confessional contextual calvinists" against the emerging church. I guess it was inevitable though. It seems that younger evangelicals are destined to veer towards the EC, or to the hard Reformed right with folks like Driscoll, Piper, Josh Harris, etc. For a while I had hope that the two movements could overlap and find common ground, but I should have known the Reformed guys would just want to pick a fight. Funny thing how their founders (i.e. Luther and Calvin) got branded as heretics by their Church, and now their followers feel the need to return the favor with everyone else.

But I think it was Doug who once suggested that if someone wants to start a war with the emerging church, we ought to respond simply with:

A Smile
A Wink
A Prayer
A friendly Email
Offers of hospitality
Invitation to Friendships

Granted, we've already done this with a lot of these guys, but I suppose it can't hurt to keep trying.

What if they held a war and nobody came? ;)

[grace]

LOL, I did write my post in my pajamas, but I am the mom in this house.

Great response Mike. I agree that the best response to all of this is to just carry on, which it seems that perhaps Rob Bell and others are busy doing.

[sacred vapor]

the question to ask Driscoll is the following... now what?

[Heather Fischer]

Bob, Here is the comment I left on that article:
"Mark Driscoll strikes a nerve because he is hard core on the essentials and leaves room for preference and personal conviction on issues that are to be considered cultural and extra-biblical. He calls on men to step it up 1,000 notches because the average church attending male gets more excited and passionate about their 14 year-old's j.v. hockey game than Jesus. I say it's about time."
I may not agree with all of his methods, but if you listened to his 9-18-07 podcast neither does he:)

[iggy]

Bob,

Don't worry, Mark will later apologize and flip flop back to emerging... I know he has a love/hate relationship and it is definitely in regards to his "Calvinistic" tenancies...

Now I think it interesting that some can be both emerging and Calvinist... and some seem to think they can't. I think it is that some in the Calvinist camp in order to be as "Calvinist" as possible begin to think that anyone who is not is not saved. (At least that is what i am told about 2 or 3 times a week by them).

On the other hand I see those who are Calvinists or are not that are not seeking to be a better Calvinist but desiring to be transformed into the image of Christ have a much more generous and charitable orthodoxy.

So I guess it comes down to one's first love... Calvin or Jesus... LOL!

Be Blessed,
iggy

[Andrew]

Can anyone point me to someplace in the last year or more where Bell has clearly presented the Gospel? I'm not talking all of the various social gospels and emergent crap out there, but legitimately THE GOSPEL. You know that part about how Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and he lived a sinless life so that his death on the cross could be a propitiation for the sins of the world and salvation rests solely on the regeneration of the heart and faith in the fact that Jesus has already done the work?

Now, I haven't read and heard EVERYTHING that Bell has said and written in the last year+, but what I have heard hasn't come anywhere close to the Gospel. Christian in general should be proclaiming that truth often, and a pastor should be proclaiming it more than an average Christian. I've heard nary a peep from Bell on the issue. Could it be that Mark's right? Maybe he isn't actually a Christian? Maybe he is presenting a false gospel and leading people astray. Technically, that is a heretic.

Don't worry, Mark will later apologize and flip flop back to emerging...

Something tells me Mark won't be apologizing for this one.

[ScottB]

Hey Andrew - can you find a place in scripture where this is defined as "the gospel"?

You know that part about how Jesus is the second person of the Trinity and he lived a sinless life so that his death on the cross could be a propitiation for the sins of the world and salvation rests solely on the regeneration of the heart and faith in the fact that Jesus has already done the work?

Just one? You're stringing a whole bunch of things together that aren't in any of the gospel statements of the NT. For the record, I believe in everything that you've written - I just want to be clear that when I speak of the gospel, it's not this. This might be valid theological reflections on the implications of the gospel, but the NT defines the gospel as something a little more basic, a little more narrative, a little less inundated with theological jargon and systematics. It's much more like the Apostle's Creed. Read Acts, bro, and take the reformed lenses off for a bit.

[ScottB]

So, is it official - has Mark cemented his position as the rock star of neo-fundamentalism yet?

[Bob]

I love Scott B. :)

And for the record- Yes, Mark has the position of Guitar Hero nailed down!

[Bob]

I don't listen to much of Rob's podcasts, so I don't know what he's written or said/preached over the last year. But this currently appears on Mars Hill's (Michigan) site- Sounds pretty Gospel to me:

MARS HILL NARRATIVE THEOLOGY
We believe God inspired the authors of Scripture by his Spirit to speak to all generations of believers, including us today. God calls us to
immerse ourselves in this authoritative narrative communally and individually to faithfully interpret and live out that story today as we
are led by the Spirit of God.
In the beginning God created all things good. He was and always will be in a communal relationship with himself – Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit. God created us to be relational as well and marked us with an identity as his image bearers and a missional calling to serve, care for, and
cultivate the earth. God created humans in his image to live in fellowship with him, one another, our inner self, and creation. The enemy
tempted the first humans, and darkness and evil entered the story through human sin and are now a part of the world. This devastating
event resulted in our relationships with God, others, ourselves, and creation being fractured and in desperate need of redeeming.
We believe God did not abandon his creation to destruction and decay; rather he promised to restore this broken world. As part of this
purpose, God chose a people, Abraham and his descendants to represent him in the world. God promised to bless them as a nation so
that through them all nations would be blessed. In time they became enslaved in Egypt and cried out to God because of their oppression.
God heard their cry, liberated them from their oppressor, and brought them to Sinai where he gave them an identity and a mission as his
treasured possession, a kingdom of priests, a holy people. Throughout the story of Israel, God refused to give up on his people despite
their frequent acts of unfaithfulness to him.
God brought his people into the Promised Land. Their state of blessing from God was intimately bound to their calling to embody the living
God to other nations. They made movement toward this missional calling, yet they disobeyed and allowed foreign gods into the land,
overlooked the poor, and mistreated the foreigner. The prophetic voices that emerge from the Scriptures held the calling of Israel to the
mirror of how they treated the oppressed and marginalized. Through the prophets, God’s heart for the poor was made known, and we
believe that God cares deeply for the marginalized and oppressed among us today.
In Israel’s disobedience, they became indifferent and in turn irrelevant to the purposes to which God had called them. For a time, they
were sent into exile; yet a hopeful remnant was always looking ahead with longing and hope to a renewed reign of God, where peace and
justice would prevail.
We believe these longings found their fulfillment in Jesus the Messiah, conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin, mysteriously God
having become flesh. Jesus came to preach good news to the poor, to bind up the brokenhearted and set captives free, proclaiming a
new arrival of the Kingdom of God, bringing about a New Exodus, and restoring our fractured world. He and his message were rejected
by many as he confronted the oppressive nature of the religious elite and the empire of Rome. Yet his path of suffering, crucifixion, death,
burial, and resurrection has brought hope to all creation. Jesus is our only hope for bringing peace and reconciliation between God and
humans. Through Jesus we have been forgiven and brought into right relationship with God. God is now reconciling us to each other,
ourselves, and creation. The Spirit of God affirms as children of God all those who trust Jesus. The Spirit empowers us with gifts,
convicts, guides, comforts, counsels, and leads us into truth through a communal life of worship and a missional expression of our faith.
The church is rooted and grounded in Christ, practicing spiritual disciplines and celebrating baptism and the Lord’s Supper. The church
is a global and local expression of living out the way of Jesus through love, peace, sacrifice, and healing as we embody the resurrected
Christ, who lives in and through us, to a broken and hurting world.
We believe the day is coming when Jesus will return to judge the world, bringing an end to injustice and restoring all things to God’s
original intent. God will reclaim this world and rule forever. The earth’s groaning will cease and God will dwell with us here in a restored
creation. On that day we will beat swords into tools for cultivating the earth, the wolf will lie down with the lamb, there will be no more
death and God will wipe away all our tears. Our relationships with God, others, ourselves, and creation will be whole. All will flourish as
God intends. This is what we long for. This is what we hope for. And we are giving our lives to living out that future reality now.

[Mike Clawson]

Andrew, I was going to ask the same thing as ScottB... can you point me to where Jesus presented the gospel like that? As I recall Jesus' gospel message was more like "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand".

[Mike Clawson]

Andrew, I was going to ask the same thing as ScottB... can you point me to where Jesus presented the gospel like that? As I recall Jesus' gospel message was more like "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand".

[Mike Clawson]

Andrew, I was going to ask the same thing as ScottB... can you point me to where Jesus presented the gospel like that? As I recall Jesus' gospel message was more like "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand".

[Aaron]

Hey Bob, it is kind of funny to read this post and your article "Mark and Doug and Me" this morning of all mornings - funny because my wife and I just arrived home last night from an Acts 29 bootcamp in Raleigh!

It was really interesting to read your take on the whole thing. They have certainly made some changes since your experience, but Driscoll was...well...Driscoll. He didn't name any names but I found myself turning to my wife throughout our 2 days saying things like, "That one was was aimed at McLaren" and "He's definitely ripping on Bell now." My favorite part was in my pre-bootcamp questionaires, when asked about what I believe about predestination, I threw some Greg Boyd and Rob Bell references out there just to see what would happen...and wow!!! You would have thought i sucker punched someone's grandma! I seriously wondered for a while whether I'd be allowed to attend the conference or be blacklisted for good. To their credit, however, after going round and round in our theological discussion, they eventually OKAY'd me despite my refusal to sign off on some of their ultra-reformed theology. I found this to be very encouraging and it gave me a lot of hope for A29.

And about Andrew's Bell question, I was up at Mars Hill for the "Isn't She Beautiful" Conference in December and Bell laid out the gospel loud and clear. (Of course, he did stir up a firestorm of his own with some pretty provacative questions...and to which he gave few or no answers.)

[brad brisco]

Bob

Thanks for highlighting this. I think this quote from Leonard Sweet speaks to what we have done with the "Gospel" that some speak of:

"Over a two-thousand-year period, but especially in the last two hundred years, we have jerked and tugged the Christian faith out of its original soil, its life-giving source, which is an honest relationship with God through Jesus the Christ. After uprooting the faith, we have entombed it in a declaration of adherence to a set of beliefs. The shift has left us with casual doctrinal assent that exists independent of a changed life. We have made the Cross into a crossword puzzle, spending our time diagramming byzantine theories of atonement. How did the beauty of Jesus’ atoning work get isolated from the wonder of restoring an authentic relationship between God and humanity?"

[brad brisco]

Sorry one more quote that I think its the nail on the head:

Western Christianity is largely belief based and church focused. It is concerned with landing on the right theology and doctrine and making sure everyone else toes the line. The Jesus trimtab, in contrast, is relationship based and world focused. It is concerned not so much with what you believe as with whom you are following. It is less invested in maintaining and growing an institution and more invested in Jesus’ passion for saving the world.

[todd]

hey bob I am just curious if Driscoll used the word "heretic" to describe Rob Bell. If not maybe we should just wait and see exactly what his criticisms were of Bell and then evaluate them according to scripture. I read the post you linked to and it did not seem that those guys were saying Driscoll called Bell a "heretic." It really seems like Driscoll just addressed some strong theological differences he has with those guys. What is wrong with that?

Personally I find it refreshing. The stakes are incredibly high in the world we live in nowadays and I think pastors and theologians owe it to Christians to be as honest as they can be. Does this mean they need to be derogatory or personally insult each other, absolutely not. But what is wrong with judging someone else's ideas and saying you think they are wrong? I mean if someone is at my church and they are reading "The Secret" you can bet I am going to tell them (lovingly) that the book is false and the author has bad ideas.

Last, his "blogging jihadist" line was off the charts funny, that is Driscoll at his comical best.

[ryan]

I agree with Todd, maybe we should here the criticisms before we just relegate Driscoll to just feeding his rabid Reformed audience what they want to hear. Truth is maybe there is some merit to what Driscoll is saying but we do not like the messenger.

If Driscoll is not your messenger of choice we should remember that New Testament Scholar Ben Witherington wrote about some of these same concerns when it comes to Rob Bell, you can read them over at Ben's blog. Personally I am a fan of Rob Bell and love what he is doing, but as much as some of us think Driscoll has made a hard veer to the right over the last few years, there also seems to be signs that Bell is making a hard veer to the left.

[Rose]

did he really say "ebonites?"

[Scott Davison]

I thnk the issue comes down to public discourse and the place of this discussion ouside of personal relationship. What I mean is that very little is ever accomplished by one-sided public debate, whatever the position.

A great example of this can be drawn from my wifes studies at Western Seminary (Where Driscoll is/was taking courses from a professor who is on Acts29 board). She was told in theology where Rob Bell stood on certain issues and was disturbed by these positions. Well two weeks later ,when we were visiting Mars Hill, my wife went and picked up their statement of faith and it articulated a clearly orthodox position, very different than what she had been told.

I was also at the "Isn't She Beautiful" conference last year at Mars Hill where many of these topics were discussed. What I found refreshing is Mars Hill's and Rob Bells open willingness to state what they believe in public, put it in writing (such as the statement of faith above) and begin working it out. They are unbeleivably gracious with other churches whom are not where they are and choose to be known by how much they love not what debate they won.

My gut reaction:
Why does Driscoll go after people who he knows won't publicly defend themselves? It consistantly feels like he is being a bully when no one pushes back. Why doesn't he open the guns at someone like Greg Boyd or NT Wright if he thinks what Bell is saying is wrong?

[blake]

scott davison,

excellent question about why driscoll doesnt go after nt wright or greg boyd.

to whomever mentioned it:

what did he stir up at isnt she beautiful? i was there and didnt get that vibe.

[Brad]

How is that an excellent question? It has nothing to do with the topic. Besides Scott most of your language is quite inflammatory. To imply that he is picking on people, starting fights, "open guns" or bully people frames it all wrong. Every blog I read engages and weighs ideas. Lord knows anyone who has read this blog knows that bob has spent some time evaluating Driscoll's. I just wonder how it is so over the top dreadful when Driscoll does the same.

I have not listened to the audio and for all I know Driscoll was a real jerk, but if all he did was give his thoughts on these guys and their theology, were is the foul? I think the truth is some people really dislike the guy and this has to do more with hidden agendas than anything else.

[Mac]

Apropos to Driscoll's blog post is this one from the West Seattle Blog disputing his numbers estimates as to how many were present at his baptismal event, not to speak of one individual's account of some kids he knew who were "baptized"..basically for fun.

Y'all watch out. All this seeker-friendly stuff is going to come back to bite you because it is just *so shallow* and numbers and buzz-oriented.

[Helen]

I expect Mark Driscoll is quite happy right now because of the new CT article about him.

[Scott Davison]

"what did he stir up at isnt she beautiful? i was there and didn't get that vibe"
I didn't think they stirred up anything, that's my point. They stated what they believed and let it stand alone without saying someone else was wrong. Bell specifically went out of his way to acknowledge different that people are at different places.

Brad
I have followed Driscoll and been to one Resurgence event, read his book and read some of what he blogs. I don't have an axe to grind with him personally and furthermore think what God has used him for in Seattle is amazing. What I am concerned about is using that platform to influence a large number of maluable Driscol followers around the country.
The questioned I posed was important because the theology of Rob Bell is very similar to NT Wright and Greg Boyd both of whom are academics and pastors who have defended their positions publicly.

Mac
I really, really hope that story isn't true and that the numbers were true.