Adventures in Emerging...

Comments

[ShaneBertou]

Hmm. I like... I dunno... worship the dude to the far left. His theology. His books. His blatant awesomeness...

Don't believe me? Check 75% of my last few posts. He's awesome in every way.

Signed.

Bob.

Hate me. I'm sure it's coming. But dude, seriously... check yourself.

[Bob]

Are you kidding?

Could it be that MAYBE I'm
1. Reviewing his latest book
2. Had him here in town for a visit
and so have been talking about Doug lately?

And I don't worship his theology- he and I disagree on just about all of the most fundamental things.

Doug is a great guy, I do like him, but your comments are silly.

[ShaneBertou]

I've been coming here for a long time, and I really enjoy what you have to offer. And I don't doubt Doug's a great guy.

But I've definitely been getting a "the exalted one is in our midst" vibe the past few days, which is sort of creepy. I'm just saying maybe you might want to consider reeling it in a bit.

I don't mean to be a jerkoff, and I tend to come off as such quite frequently. I really don't mean to be. So I'm sorry if I'm out of line.

But as a casual observer ...

[ShaneBertou]

(Honestly dude. Now I'm feeling remorseful for coming off that way. I truly am sorry. Feel free to delete my comments if you'd like and start fresh.)

[sonja]

I laughed my head off at this photo ... how funny!!

[rob winger]

dude, get some books.

[Bob]

Shane- no worries!

and no books! This is an empty office at Western they use for round tables like we were having. they call it "The Upper Room" :P

[mat]

"And I don't worship his theology- he and I disagree on just about all of the most fundamental things."

Aren't people that fit the category of "disagree on just about all of the most fundamental things." called heretics?

What say you Bob?

[Sean]

did you mean "all of the most fundamental things," or "all BUT the most fundamental things"????

[Sean]

did you mean "all of the most fundamental things," or "all BUT the most fundamental things"????

[Bob]

"he and I disagree on just about all of the most fundamental things."

Matt- one man's heretic is another's reformer, right?
Let me dodge that question for a minute and say it this way- Doug rejects most of the Augustinian paths that theology has taken.
So-
No Fall. No Sin nature. Jesus' death on the Cross is the supreme example of God standing with/suffering with the outcasts and marginalized among us, not a legal transaction that pays a debt of ours or deals with our sin in any way. Our job is to live life more congruently with God's character and hopes/dreams for the world. Belief doesn't really come into it.

I disagree with those ideas...

[matt]

"Matt- one man's heretic is another's reformer, right?"

So true. I almost made a reference to that in my post. Thanks for dialouging on this and many other subjects. You truly are a shining example of what it means to facilitate the "conversation".

Peace bro.

[blake Williamson]

bob

are you saying that a non-augustinian path has no fall or sin nature, or doug believes in no fall or sin nature?

you can reject an augustine view and not be a heretic and be true to christian history. if not, most church fathers before augustine were heretics.

there is no reason a legal transaction view has to be "THE" atonement view that must be held for orthodoxy.

i say this because this is one of the most frustrating things for when discussing church history. many reformed i know think it begins with augustine and the chief belief is a legal transaction view of atonement. step outside this view and you a wrong. i just dont see that giving a full picture of church history especially when dealing with the early church fathers.

"belief doesnt come into it"- is this a cognitive belief, or one that is both of the mind and action

maybe a read your statement wrong. i visit here often and find myself in agreement with you most of the time.

[Bob]

I'm saying that Doug denies Augustinian theology, embraces an expicitly Pelagian view, doesn't believe in a Fall, that we are born with a sin nature or lacking anything we need to live out the hopes dreams and aspirations of God in the world, and links it all together (those views and a rejection of Augustianism, that is).

No- I reject a legal transaction view of the atonement as THE view as well It's one (very important) facet, along with a victory over sin and death, an example, a ransom, etc.

Doug (and we'll get to this in the book review, if I can ever get to it) explicitly rejects the legal view as wrong. It's not even part of the equation, in his mind.It's sub-Christian and an error (which takes things a lot further, I think, than early Christians who might have had other emphases, but didn't, in so many words reject the idea that Christ was a substitute for us.)
In fact, talking about theories of atonement at all is not something Doug wants to do (most likely because he sees little that's efficacious in Christ's death that wasn't already present in His life).

""belief doesnt come into it"- is this a cognitive belief, or one that is both of the mind and action"

I think when Doug says "belief doesn't come into it" he's trying to be pretty all-encompassing. For him, the issue is living out the life were supposed to live, not whether we put faith in Jesus or not.
Again, I disagree with that...

He's got a whole section in his book on So What Do We Do With Jesus... we'll get to that too...

[blake]

thanks for the clarification bob.

question: would doug say that we can live the life we are supposed to live without putting our trust in Jesus (as the best way to live)?

[Bob]

Yes- He would- he might make the distinction that we mainly know what that life looks like through Jesus, but he's very emphatic- there's no ontological difference between CHristians and non-christians. Nothing lacking in Non-Christians to live the way God wants us to..

[Aaron Stewart]

"we are born with a sin nature or lacking anything we need to live out the hopes dreams and aspirations of God in the world, and links it all together (those views and a rejection of Augustianism, that is)."

And this is where I hopped off the train. Wow.

[Aaron Stewart]

I meant to quote this above.

"doesn't believe in a Fall, that we are born with a sin nature or lacking anything we need to live out the hopes dreams and aspirations of God in the world,"

Still of the same opinion.