Church Pirates!

Ahoy!

Lots of buzz around Ed Young Jr's Church Pirates video...

Yeah...

So many issues here...

I get what Ed is saying. I'm in no way in favor of people being divisive, leading a group of people away from a church community against the wishes of the rest of the community and/or the elders. 

But that being said, there are a number of things about this that really bother me. 

Mostly that Ed's philosophy here, in addition to being somewhat incoherent at the end, is so far from what is needed and actually works that I really question his contention that he's in favor of church planting. Seems like Ed has fallen into the mentality of most large church guys- "We love church planting... over THERE." Where is "over there"? 

Anywhere but within driving distance of my church.

Specifically, some things in this are just (to quote Ed) "totally whack."

1. Church plants need to happen far from the place where the planter began in ministry. 

Really? What we're asking for is that church planters learn how to do ministry, put down roots, get to know people in a certain area and then... leave? Go someplace where they know few or no people, are out of touch with the local culture and events and then have to learn all that from the ground up? 

Please. The best place to plant a church is where you are at, where you know people and people know you.

I recognize that certain people are called to plant churches in totally new frontiers and reach unreached people. Absolutely. 

But if the choice is between me planting a church in my home town or being forced by the insecurity of other leaders to plant a church a couple of hours away in unfamiliar territory, let me do it where I know the lay of the land and can get through the learning curve to effectiveness much, much quicker. 

That may be more personally threatening to established leaders, but it feels a lot more like kingdom thinking to me. 

2. The people belong to the pastor. Anything else is sheep stealing.

 

Yeah... I'm as protective as the next guy or gal of evergreen people. I don't want anyone hurting them, messing with them, leading them into either wrong teaching or wrong action... but- I hold them with an open hand. They belong to Jesus, not me. They are adults and can make real, reasonable choices in terms of where they are going to be best used in the Mission Dei. I may look big picture for both them and the community as a whole and then work behind the scenes to encourage someone to either stay or go, but that's because I believe it's what's best in that particular case. 

But when it comes down to it- evergreen people are a gift to the community- we're stewards of each other. And if they genuinely connect with a leader different than me, well... that's good, actually. More on that in a minute.

3. You know church pirates who took 20 years to "make their moves." 

You've got to be kidding me. 

So let me get this straight- these guys found some big healthy church, got on staff, and stealthily waited 20 years before hatching their nefarious scheme. The Manchurian Pastor, as it were. 

Could it be that these guys found themselves needing to strike out and start something new... but weren't given permission? Could what you call piracy have been a mixture of frustration caused by a number of different things in the original church, failure in the leadership to see apostolic gifting and impulses in emerging leaders, and failure of those emerging leaders to handle their frustration in a non-divisive manner? 

Look, as I said- I get what Ed is saying. There are divisive and non divisive ways of doing this. But my contention is that the best way to avoid the divisive version of church planting is to build it into the DNA of your community and to give permission. 

One of my pitches to people I want to come and plant churches out of evergreen is this: Come, work your way into leadership in our community, start pastoring people, build a community out of "my" community, and when you, they and us (the elders) feel like it's the right time, we'll bless you and send you off. 

Sounds just like Ed's description of Church Pirates, but with a couple of crucial differences...

In our model, we're not only expecting this to happen, but inviting it. And by inviting it, every thing becomes above board. No one feels the need to go underground and "sheep steal" when the elders of a community are in fact encouraging them to be people's pastor, to love them, shepherd them and when the time is right, launch out with them. 

I think Ed is speaking from a place of pain. I wish the solution was a simple as he thinks, that is, coming up with a catchy phrase like "church pirates" and talking about it on the internet. 

The real solution is for established leaders to change the way they view emerging leaders and to quit doing leadership in such a way that young men and women feel like they have to wrestle the baton out of the hands of a previous generation just to do what they feel like God is calling them to do. 

A better solution to the problem that Ed is flailing at here is a permission giving ethos that gives mentoring, a place to grow in leadership and skills and can then ask for (and get) patience out of emerging leaders that might not be as ready as they think. 

In my mind, that's a win on all sides. 

Arrrh. 

20 years? 

Comments

[steve carr]

Good analysis of the content. I think this mini-rant becomes problematic because it's an ambiguous confrontation. Just who are these church pirates?

I'm assuming that Ed is speaking to an issue specifically dealing with Fellowship Church but didn't want to call the individuals out by name in an attempt to stay above the fray. But instead of being gracious, it comes across as somewhat bitter. So instead of a precise rebuke, it's a broad one that with accusations that could be charged against Fellowship Church themselves.

Sometimes we need to call people out by name rather than trying to beat around the bush.

[david]

bob,

i'm with you on this. i agree in principle with Ed, but think he's maybe off base in his application of 1 Cor. 1.

however...

i've seen close-up the 20+ year pirate thing happen... so, yeah. think of absalom sitting at the gates... it happens.

on the whole, though, you're right. most of the time it has a lot to do with the "chief shepherd" not doing a good job of equipping and unleashing.

[grace]

Great analysis Bob. Ed's perspective (or lack of) in this post and his defense of it is almost scary.

[Bob Hyatt]

Thanks, Grace...

David- I think Absalom is actually a great example of a story whose end could have been very different with better choices by both the young guy AND the established leader...

[david]

agreed.

[jason ackerman]

I watched this last night, just before going to bed, which was probably bad because I stewed on it before going to sleep.

Saving the more substantive critiques for another time, a couple surface things really bugged me. The continuous use of the words "church planters" in air quotes, for one.

The second was the comparison of church planting to the corporate world - "if you tried that in the corporate world, you'd be jailed" ... as if the corporate model is the exact thing we should be striving for! I think that shows the clearcut difference in philosophy - many of us are trying to specifically do church in a non-corporate-America way, because corporate marketing is about building wealth and your brand - it's remarkably self-glorifying. And in that model, everything he's saying is spot on correct. And that's just it - if we are self-glorifying and focused on building our own kingdom, then we should heed his words to the letter. But if we're about the Kingdom of God, then much of what he says here should raise little red flags and deafening warning bells all over the place.

I'm currently on staff at a church in Colorado where I'm in line to be the 'campus pastor' as we go multi-site. What I'm thankful for is that as the leadership team, we are slowly, carefully working through the issue to be sure that everything we do is a kingdom mindset, from the big albatross of 'video venue' (which I currently oppose), down to the most detailed discussion of how this thing would work. There are a lot of questions still to be answered - so thanks Bob for posting this stuff, it helps me work through and sharpen my own thoughts.

--jason. (former Portland/Vancouver guy now in Denver)

[Jessi]

Wow...harsh. Definitely seems like he's speaking out of hurt.

My husband and I are church planters - of just the variety that Ed would probably be referring to. We planted, pretty much literally 5 minutes down the road from our former church (who did, in fact bless us and send us out) but it has seemed after the fact that there is still a lack of understanding by many (including leaders) why we needed to leave. We were feeling called to cultivate a relational community, less focused on 'programs' and more on discipleship...etc. Anyway, they did release a team to plant with us of about 14 people. Aside from those, we have tried to be very cautious (to the point of practically discouraging people)not to build on people coming from other churches - be it our sending church or others. We've tried to keep our mission to reach un-churched or de-churched people, and it's been a tough road. Growth has definitely not been fast (after 3 years we're still only at about 40-some people), but we feel like of those people, we are seeing fruit in their lives, through some of the toughest of life circumstances.

All that to say, it's most frustrating to me to hear Ed stereotype and rant like that... Yeah, church planting is a big 'scheme' we came up with to 'get rich quick' and build ourselves a fine, fancy kingdom of our own...

While a lot of what he's saying might be true, especially in the mega-church circles he runs in, it casts a pretty bad light on ALL church planters in general. Like "beware of the big, bad, and highly dangerous pirate who goes by the name of Church Planter...arghh". I see what looks an awful lot like that 'personal' kingdom building in much of the mega-church movement...maybe it's less about the planters and some about reaping what some of those 'big dogs' have sown...

Just a (admittedly biased) thought...

[blake]

i find it interesting that Ed speaks of pirates establishing their "kingdom" and then leaving.

i say this because a church i know was revamping their childrens ministry and was looking at various churches to gather ideas. when they contacted fellowship about checking out their childrens facilities and how they do things fellowship responded that they would be glad to... as long as the church forked over a certain amount of money.

exactly who is building "their" kingdom?
this is is why i agree with jason above that it seams that Ed is interested in building his christian brand or corporation and it just happens to be held in a, wait for it...

..."church".

in which case i can see why ed would speak in such a pompous, arrogant and pithy tone because other churches are being "planted" in the area.

maybe the people are being led by God to plant a church that desires to benefit the entire kingdom i.e. not charging for information about a childrens ministry instead of being a part of "corporate church." Perhaps they thought Fellowship was what they wanted and then after being there realized there must be a better way to do this. Yes, God might be leading them away from your kingdom Ed and into his.

[Andrew]

I think Ed's attitude is a natural by-product of the Pastor as the center/Pastor as celebrity culture that has been developed.

I have to say that this is one area of church I believe my Mormon neighbors have a more biblical example of church. When a congregation gets past 300, they "split" and form another congregation. Up to three congregations use the same building (they rotate from the sanctuary to various classrooms). The church is completely run by volunteers at the local level. A bishop is selected and he serves as "Pastor" for 2-4 years. During that time, he has 2 counselors whom he works with, and they are trained in his duties. When his period as Bishop is done, someone new is selected.

I tip my hat to them, because they are constantly raising up leaders from within and no one holds the center chair more than a few years. Everyone within the congregation is responsible in some way for the administering of the congregation.

In our churches, we are most defined by WHO pastors the church. This never happens in Mormon churches. Though I disagree with my Mormon neighbors on much theology, I think in this arena, we could learn a thing or two from them.

[LC]

I just breathed a wonderful, refreshing sigh of relief after reading this post. Thank you!