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Wow- the Author of The Shack tells Driscoll to "Man up!"

Mark Driscoll's YouTube video of the message in which he took The Shack to task was

1. highly watched

2. slightly overblown 

There are some things to be careful of in the Shack, no doubt (my review is here), but my guess is Mark's apoplexy was probably based more on an intern-produced bullet-point summary than a careful reading of the book. 

Now, Paul Young, one of the most irenic men I've ever had the privilege to meet is speaking Mark's language in an effort to get Mark to sit down and talk about public charges of heresy that he's made. While I think the chances of that happening are about the same as Mark reading Psalm 11:5 and being convicted to give up watching Ultimate Fighting, I think the effort is interesting nonetheless. 

Here's what Paul Young says:

“Mark Driscoll has leveled some serious charges against my writing and by extension against me. He has publicly called me a heretic. I’ve decided to ask him to meet me in Seattle on Sept 10th, from 1-3 PM, and have an open discussion in front of a public audience about the different ways he and I view scripture.

I have asked my good friend Jim Henderson to host this conversation. It will not be a debate but a discussion about our differences and because we are both Christians about the places we are in agreement. The audience will be able to ask questions of both of us.

Mark seems quite fond of telling his congregants to “man up” and I guess I am really asking him to do the same. I would like him to say to my face what he has spread around the world via Youtube, and you can be sure I’ll have a few questions for him as well.

I’m sure many ‘non-Christians’ wonder why someone like Mark can say things like this with impunity. When someone is able to garner 350K views on Youtube, or for that matter has sold almost 20 Million copies of a book, I believe the conversations have become public property.”

 

So what do you think? Is this a publicity grab on the part of Jim Henderson? Or Paul Young (though with a book that's sold as many copies as the Shack, probably not)? A real attempt to mend fences? Or just to make a point?

Should Mark talk to Paul? Is Paul a heretic? Should we care about either?

Franchise ahoy!

I've been predicting for awhile that Mars Hill Church in Seattle would try to plant a video venue here in Portland, notwithstanding the two to four (depending on how you count) Acts 29 planted churches in the metro area. 

Then today, I got this Facebook invite: ""Hey guys for those of you who have enjoyed the teaching of Mark Driscol (sic) we welcome you to join this group and invite you to pray about the possibility of a Mars Hill Church Portland Campus ".

Now, truth is, this may simply be an overeager fan boy. Or it may be someone who's actually doing something "official." Who knows. 

I do know this- Mark needs men. 900 men to be precise. Recently he posted this:

"We are deadly serious about the great commission and loading all guns to storm hell with the gospel of grace. And we need more men. Nine hundred men. Not boys—men. Real men. Men who care less about padding their resume and getting their vacation days than about seeing lives transformed and legacies altered for generations. We need men who love their wives, pastor their children, submit to Scripture, bleed the gospel, and have steel in their spine, love in their hearts, and the lost in their sights."

I'm all about men loving their wives, pastoring their children, submitting to Scripture, bleeding the Gospel, etc, etc. But truthfully, I have a feeling that when we talk about it, it tends to come out differently. And don't even get me started on the where the women are in this picture. Keeping the home fires burning while the men storm the gates, I assume.

Anyway, this invite to discuss a video venue or Mars Hill was sent to the wrong guy. Not sure how someone could be my Facebook friend and NOT know my thoughts on this, but in case you need a refresher, check here. 

I feel badly, but I did "join" the group and posted a thought... we'll see how long it stays on the page :)

I said: "Look- not to be a jerk- but there are already three churches here in Portland started by the Acts 29 network. A video church of Mark's teaching is not only redundant (it's all vodcasted, right?) it's kind of an insult to those who have worked hard to plant the churches that this video venue would most likely draw people from.

As someone who has planted and is planting churches in PDX, I can assure you- my problem isn't thinking that there are too many churches in Portland. I'm passionate about seeing as many real churches planted as possible. But a franchised video church with elders who live in another state, 3 hours away? No- thank you."

Please understand- If you want to listen to Mark's podcast/watch his vodcast, I think you should go for it- I subscribe to his podcast for crying out loud. But where we're going with this is eventually a Mark Driscoll, Andy Stanley, Ed Young Jr, Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, et al Video Franchise in every major city, the further Wal-Martization of the church and, I kid you not- the death of preaching.

 

Think that's hyperbole? 

Stay tuned. 

Driscoll on Stay at Home Dads

I'll try to be careful here... but there really isn't a way to balance this out. I think I need to just come right out and say: The exegesis displayed here is just plain awful. 

Someone who claims to value the text as highly as Driscoll shouldn't have such a hard time getting that 1 Tim 5:8 has little to do with the role of men vis a vis women and everything to do with believers in general taking care of relatives in need. 

How do I know? 

Read the context. 

Read the Greek- the word "man" or "male" is nowhere found. It's "If anyone..."

To wrench a verse out of context so blatantly, and to use it to proof-text a concept like stay at home dads is more than silly- it's poor handling of Scripture, plain and simple. I'm sad to see that advocating Mark/Mars Hill's take particular take on the roles of men and women supersedes the responsibility to handle Scripture responsibly. And to threaten church discipline for stay-at-home dads?!?! Are you kidding?? 

(I'm sure Brian and/or Starla might want to weigh in here... or maybe not.)

Yes- If I saw a guy who refused to provide for his family, to the detriment of a wife and kids that's one issue. But the broad brush here catches families who choose to have dad stay at home and mom work because it's what they've decided is best for their family at that time and makes a matter of sin and discipline what is essentially a pragmatic question that should get resolved in individual families taking into consideration the personalities, people and professions involved. 

If you want to call men to take more responsibilities for their lives and families, fine. You can do that without descending down into hierarchicalism. 

And saying "we don't want to be legalistic" followed directly by legalism really doesn't get you off the hook.

(Hey... and lookit Mrs. Driscoll teaching the men of the Church Scripture! Pretty cool!) 

The Shack- reviewed. At length.

So yes, I've finally read The Shack. Forgive me if for many of you the book is old news. I'm one of those guys who tends to shy away from "phenomenon" books- I think we're all a little burned out on the Left Behinds and Purpose Driven Lifes... In addition, I knew that at the heart of the book is a tragedy that befalls a young girl, and truth is, I have a hard time handling anything like that since I became the dad of a little girl. 

But when Oregon Public Broadcasting called me last week and wanted to know if I'd be on their Friday show with Shack author William "Paul" Young to talk the "Religion to Relationship" transition and about the Shack specifically, I figured I better read the book.

And after reading it, I can honestly say "I'm surprised." By a number of things...

Mars Hill Worship: Destructor!

All our worship music reflects our theology, doesn't it... I mean- it's impossible to write songs about God that come from some generic, theology-free zone.

So- from the Reformed Tradition: something great and something... less so.

The Church, from Derek Webb
" I have come with one purpose
to capture for myself a bride
by my life she is lovely
by my death she’s justified

I have always been her husband
though many lovers she has known
so with water i will wash her
and by my word alone

So when you hear the sound of the water
you will know you’re not alone

Chorus:
‘Cause I haven’t come for only you
but for my people to pursue
you cannot care for me with no regard for her
if you love me you will love the church

I have long pursued her
as a harlot and a whore
but she will feast upon me
she will drink and thirst no more

So when you taste my flesh and my blood
you will know you’re not alone

Chorus:
There is none that can replace her
though there are many who will try
and though some may be her bridesmaids
they can never be my bride"

Nice... Technically not worship music- the words are written from Christ's perspective (through a Reformed lens of limited atonement) rather than TO Him.. but still worshipful.

And now for something completely different...

Awhile ago I noticed the title of a song that showed up in numerous Mars Hill worship sets: "Destructor"
Some have accused Evergreen worship of being a little too down beat, but man- this one takes the cake. But it's not the dirge-like tone that really puts it in the "awful" category. It's the words...

"From the      first time you flooded the earth
          AbM7        Eb                                         Cm
        To the          last time You burned off the curse
          AbM7       Eb                                      Cm
        To the          way that You hated Your Son
            AbM7      Eb                                  Intro x2
        When You   hung all the sins of the world

Pre-Chorus    Cm    AbM7     Eb               Cm    AbM7     Eb
        Holy, Holy,     Holy, Holy, Holy,  Holy,    Holy

Chorus    Cm               AbM7                    Eb
        Heaven will disappear with a roar
                Cm       AbM7                        Eb
        The host of God will come to destroy
        Cm        AbM7              Eb
        Sin is a declaration of war
        Cm          AbM7               Eb                              Intro x2
        God will have his glory one way or another"

Yeah? Whether it's using a lightening strike as an icon of God (yes, wrath is a characteristic of God, but a derivative one wholly dependent on His love- God is not a dualistic balance of love and wrath. He's wrathful BECAUSE He loves... but that's another discussion) or positing that the Father hated the Son at some point... This all just seems out of balance. Yes, God will come to destroy sin, but again, as a derivative of healing the world, recreating everything and setting things right. It's not as though God is creative and destructive in equal parts either... "Destructor"???

I think those guys up in Seattle need a bit more sun!

Dustin has some thoughts as well...

Driscoll Reaches New Spiritual Level, Kicks His Own Ass

Oh my... From the Wittenburg Door

Driscoll Reaches New Spiritual Level, Kicks His Own Ass
07/01/2008

By Jesse Benjamin

Mark Driscoll, Pastor of Mars Hill Church in Seattle, took a dramatic stand against girly men at a Pastor’s Conference in Houston last week.

The conference, called “re:tool and re:load,” previously billed as “jesus 2.0,” featured speakers from around the country with the stated focus of “Making the Gospel and Missiology Relevant to Post Modern Culture.” Speaking at the last session of the conference, Driscoll focused his three-and-a-half-hour talk on the need for pastors to be more alpha.

“The problem with our churches today is that the lead pastor is some sissy boy who wears cardigan sweaters, has The Carpenters dialed in on his iPod, gets his hair cut at a salon instead of a barber shop, hasn’t been to an Ultimate Fighting match, works out on an elliptical machine instead of going to isolated regions of Russia like in Rocky IV in order to harvest lumber with his teeth, and generally swishes around like Jack from Three’s Company whenever Mr. Roper was around.”

Pacing the stage in a vaguely threatening manner, Driscoll focused on Biblical examples. “Jesus and Paul were serious dudes. They had teeth missing. Jesus was a carpenter, Paul was in prison. These guys didn’t eat tofu dogs and bean sprouts. They didn’t play tennis. If there were trucks back in their times, they would have been doing driveway lube jobs on a Saturday afternoon. Same thing with King David. Yeah, he might have played a lyre, but he slaughtered thousands of guys.”

The 300 pastors from around the country roared with approval, even though many of them had heard the same labored formulations at previous conferences called “reGeneration” and “resurge and reform.”

Read the rest here

Two sides to every story...

We all know they exist, right?

It's been interesting over the years to hear and read Mark Driscoll's side of his "break" with the Leadership Network group that would later become Emergent Village. He's always stated that he walked away from the whole thing over theological differences.

I have heard the other side of that story from numerous mouths who were also there and knew that there was discomfort on both sides- and that, in fact, the rest of the group felt...

Well, I guess you'll just have to read Tony Jones' new book The New Christians to get the rest of that story :)

Yeah, I know... I'm mean. So sue me.

Driscoll repents of pride...

Some good words here for all of us, maybe even for those newly minted jihadist pyjama bloggers out there so concerned about speaking the truth and so little concerned about doing so in love. But that's a different story.

Anyway, here's a transcript (ht: Justin Taylor) of a bit from the beginning:

"I believe that humility is the great omission and failure in my eleven years of preaching. I believe that this is my greatest oversight both in my example and in my instruction.

I therefore do not claim to be humble. I do not claim to have been humble. I am convicted of my pride, and I am a man who is by God’s grace pursuing humility.

...
But I truly believe that were there one thing I could do over in the history of Mars Hill it would be in my attitude and in my actions and in my words to not only emphasize sound doctrine, encourage in strength and commitment and conviction but, to add in addition to that, humility as a virtue.

And so I’ll start by asking your forgiveness and sincerely acknowledging that this has been a great failure.

And I believe that it is showing up in our church in the lives of men and women who have sound doctrine but not sound attitude. They may contend for good things but their motives are bad and their methods are bad and their tone is bad and their tactics are bad and their actions are bad because their attitudes are bad even though their objective is sometimes good. I see this in particular with the men. I see this with men young and old, men who have known Jesus for a long time and should know better, and men who are new to Jesus and are learning sometimes the hard way.

I will take some responsibility for this. Luke 6:40 says that when fully trained, disciples are like their teacher, and I am primary teaching pastor of this church and I can’t simply look at the pride in some of our people and say that I am in no way responsible or complicit.

I’m a guy who is pretty busted up over this personally and it really came to my attention last December just in time for Christmas. The critics really brought me a lot of kind gifts of opposition and hatred and animosity. Merry Christmas. And some of those most vocal and nasty critics were Christians – some of them prominent Christians. So I was getting ready to fire back (my usual tactics). They hit you, you hit them twice and then blog about your victory. Which I don’t have any verses for and don’t say it was a good idea. But it had been a pattern in my life until a man named C.J. Mahaney called.

I’d always considered humility to be cowardice and a compromise. In the name of humility you give up biblical conviction and passion and the willingness to contend for the faith (Jude 3) and to fight false teaching. What he was describing was orthodoxy in belief and humility in attitude and that those two together are really what God desires. And so it got me thinking and studying and praying through pride and humility and repenting and learning and growing. So I would start by saying that I thank my dear friend C.J. Mahaney for his ongoing friendship and the kindness he has extended to me and the things I’ve been able to learn through his instruction.

Furthermore, I apologize and repent publicly to you, the church for whom I am responsible, for much pride in the history of my ministry that some of you have poorly imitated and for that I am deeply sorry.

And thirdly, to say that I’m not a humble man but as result of study I’m a man who is acknowledging his pride and pursuing humility by God’s grace."

-- Mark Driscoll, sermon on Philippians 2:1-11 (November 4, 2007), part 5 in The Rebel's Guide to Joy in Humility (3:16-8:40)

And speaking of Joel Osteen, pt 2

My views on video venues are obvious.

As much as I hate the idea of beaming one particular preacher's image to the back of a room filled with 5,000 people I hate even more the idea of beaming that image across town or to the next town.

To other states?
To other countries?

Aye carumba.

Large churches are now franchising themselves across the country.
Within 5-10 years, will all the biggest churches have sites in all the biggest/medium-sized cities?

Please, please... no.

Mars Hill Seattle has a pretty cool little experiment going here. They're allowing anyone- Mars Hill member or interweb interloper to pose a question or to vote for someone else's question, all with the idea of choosing what Mark Driscoll will discuss during a 9-week series early next year.

Here's a question that, honestly, I don't even know is based on fact. I have a feeling though, that if the question is completely off base, it would simply get flagged and deleted.
If it is true, I think it's a move in a direction harmful to Christianity here in the States, overall.  Personally I would love to hear the answer...

Why don't you help by voting? (By the way, the rules are, you get 10 votes a day and can use them all on one question or on multiple ones)

Yeah- I know, I know...

(UPDATE: we just moved the question from #100 to #62 #59 #21 #18#14#13!!!.  Good job everyone all you bloggers in PJ's! Think we can get it into the top 9? See, you really can make a difference... even from Mom's basement!)

Driscoll podcast up...

The Driscoll podcast calling out everyone to the left is up.  Here's the message- listen to it. (and skip the first few minutes... You've heard it. At some point Mark needs to start beginning messages with "I know you've all heard the story of my rough and tumble youth, and if you haven't, just pick a random podcast from iTunes- I'm pretty sure it will be in there.")
 

To sum up-
He uses the word "heresy" in and around the discussion, and while he doesn't apply it directly to the forehead of either Brian, Doug or Rob, he doesn't leave a whole lot of doubt as to what category he places these guys in mentally...

So- for the record...

Battle of the Mars Hills...

So Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill Seattle has now officially called Rob Bell of Mars Hill Michigan (along with Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt) a heretic.

Man... I'm bummed. Not necessarily surprised, but bummed. We all knew what he thought of Brian McLaren... and he hasn't been too charitable to Doug either (goats??), though they were once friends.

I'll listen to the message from the Convergent conference when and if they put it out there and hear what he has to say.
But as of this point- I'm doubtful that Rob is anything approaching "a heretic."

And just for the record... I didn't write this in my pajamas and  don't live with mom :)

STILL "Banned"

To be honest, I had assumed that after being publicly set straight by those who were there, working at the conference, actually handing out the "banned" DVD's, Mark Driscoll's blog post would be deleted, changed or at least updated.

No dice.

What gives?

Jon- what's going on?

Why is Mark's blog assertion that his video was "banned" (not to mention the overstatement about what Bill Hybels actually said from the stage) allowed to stand without revision or further comment when those who were there, actually handing out the videos have said things like this:

“Let me set the record straight about this once and for all. I was a volunteer at the conference and worked with Scott from Acts 29 all week on the logistics of handling the video out. We also had 1800 Acts 29 brochures that did not arrive in time to be put in the bags at the beginning of the conference. As the conference was winding down we made a decision to hand the videos and brochures out via tables and volunteers at the 3 main doors and not each door to the sanctuary. We just did not have the people to do this nor was it feasible due to exit strategy. In no way, and I know first hand as I was in on the conversation, was their EVER any discussion by anyone associated with the conference that I know of NOT to hand out the video due to Bill Hybels remarks. What was quoted above IS THE QUOTE he said. You will be able to see for yourself when the main session videos are available on the conference website.” These rumors about the video being pulled from being given out are just NOT true. I know first hand what happened and now the record should be straight.“

Seriously- this is a matter of integrity... What gives?

Just when I think I'm out... they pull me back in

I won't comment much on the recent dust-up over Driscoll's video at the 2007 National New Churches Convention.

I will say this, though. I realize that for Mars Hill Church in Seattle, women in elder/pastoral ministry  (or more precisely, not being in elder/pastoral ministry) is in the "closed hand" of issues/doctrines not up for questioning or reconsidering, as opposed to the "open hand" of things over which Mars Hill people can disagree without disengaging. I get that.

I also get that the last time we were together, I heard Mark say specifically that when it comes to relationships/fellowship outside of Mars Hill, women in ministry is an "open hand issue."

What I don't get is Mark's tone-deafness when speaking to a huge group of people that
he knows are all over the map on this issue, including a number of women pastors and church planters. I realize he has his opinions. Boy, does he.
I also know he's smart... and I really don't want to believe that Mark would intentionally poke a stick into a bee hive every few months just to draw some attention. I really don't.

So we're going to go with option 2- He forgets that in terms of relationship with other churches and the Body of Christ as a whole, he's trying to see this issue as an open hand thing about which good Christian people can disagree. And in forgetting, he speaks with perhaps less grace, less care than he should to people who he knows feel very strongly and very differently than him about the issue. In fact, the more he talks about this issue, the more he pushes and pounds it, the more that open hand feels like a closed fist.

And so when someone like Bill Hybels pushes back ever so gently, he really should listen.

Andrew Jones has the whole story here, including some corrections to Mark's take on the story from others who were there.

And the iMonk has the real rebuke to Mark, about one line from this short video that is getting less attention than the whole general issue, a line which I hope was spoken in haste and wothout thought.

Mark's a good guy- but he's tacking further and further to the right. His Jesus is becoming more and more like an ultimate fighter and less and less like the Prince of Peace and that's disturbing. Mark seems also to be making less and less room for any but a certain type of masculinity, and any but a certain type of relating between men and women, and that too is disturbing.

Here's another video that's been making the rounds, as sort of a response. I just want it to be known that the picture of the pastor's wife who HASN'T "let herself go" that comes directly after Mark's quote in the video is a picture of my awesome wife Amy (whose birthday is today!). How she got in there, I don't know... But glad we could contribute!

And then just for, uh... "fun", for the ladies, here's the real deal on women (please do NOT watch this if you have high blood pressure)

Me and Mark...

Not a ton to report, other than that it was good, pleasant, intentional... I think Mark was being nice to be nice, and I think he was being nice to be nice to someone who regularly holds a tiny match up to his increasingly large feet, if you know what I mean.

He sprinkled a little pastoral dust, and to be honest with you, it worked. I can see that those who actually get Mark as their pastor (as opposed to Mark as simply their teacher) are lucky people.

It's good for us to be in the same room as and converse with those we occasionally criticize... it forces us to see the human with feelings rather than the target.

And I'm not just talking about me and Mark.

Wiser, or something else?

There are two kinds of lessons in life- those that make you wiser, and those that simply make you smarter. I'm not going to immediately parse those two for you- hopefully it will become clear what I mean.

(And in clear defiance of Chris Leo's proposed ban on Driscoll posts for the rest of calendar year 2006, and at the risk of incurring Chris's wrath, I'm going to go ahead and say something that's been on my mind the past few days. It starts with the Driscoll, but moves on from there, so hang with me... though this will be the last about Mark for awhile- even I'm getting tired of it all!)

Over the last couple of years I have spoken with at least three people whom the Driscoll would consider close, personal friends. All have indicated to me that they were concerned about some of the things that came out of his mouth and that they had, on numerous occasions, expressed concern to him about his words and their impact.

I've also watched as slowly but surely, Mark has gotten somewhat more careful with his words. Though "limp-wristed homoevangelical" wasn't too awfully long ago, it seems to have been awhile since anything was labeled "faggoty" and that's progress no matter how you slice it.

But the recent fracas over comments on the Resurgence blog, the planned protest, the sit down between Mark and others, and Mark's subsequent statements have left me wondering- is Mark getting wiser... or just smarter?

I won't say why, but I have reason to believe, or maybe I should say reason to fear, the answer is "smarter."

So far, Mark has studiously avoided the language of apology, and while what he has said has been a step in the right direction, it should be noted that what might actually be happening is that Mark is getting smarter about what he says about people, but not necessarily wiser in what he thinks about people.

See- the difference between the two is that when I become wiser, I change. I know that my views themselves, how I think of others in particular, need some Holy Spirit re-adjustment. The level of charity with which I think of people needs to be increased. My feelings about others are subjected to the Word of God and adjusted accordingly.

When I become smarter, it's my words that change. Not necessesarily my views, but how I express them gets re-packaged. The level of charity with which I speak of people needs to be increased. My words get subjected to scrutiny and are adjusted accordingly...

But my heart- that's a different subject.

External pressure brings about external changes and while I may make concessions to alleviate the pressure, often, the end result is a hardening. I'm sure that I was right all along, and all the pressure I'm feeling convinces me of that. I'll adjust to get different results- but the adjustments remain surface...

Here's the thing- I don't think protest ever makes someone wiser. It simply makes them smarter. Protest may have the power to change the outside, but it can never change the inside. Sometimes protest is needed, and sometimes we need to start with changing the outside, particularly when someone reaches a place of harm coming to others...

But head-on external pressure absent loving relationship will simply make someone smarter about their sin. It won't change their heart.

Why am I thinking about all this? It's certainly bigger than Mark, and while I have reason to believe my 2 cents here is correct, I may be totally off base. Maybe real, internal work is being done and change is happening.

But for me, this issue also has play in other areas of my life...
My two and a half year old son, church discipline, work relationships, politics, my own life and the changes I want to see... Pressure can bring about desired external changes in any one of those areas.

But real change, real growth, real wisdom... that continues to be more elusive. That's a work of the Holy Spirit. I think He uses us... our prayer for others, our relationships with others... occasionally, even the head-on confrontations we need to do.

But those confrontations alone rarely (it seems to me) prove to bring about true change and wisdom. Too often, they serve only to make people smarter about how they do what it is they want to do...

(I'm still processing all this- so if you disagree with me, that's okay. Just realize these aren't finished thoughts by any stretch...)

Driscoll waves in the pond...

You drop a rock in the water (or as my friend Craig often says, a turd in the punchbowl) and the waves continue to reverberate outward...

MSNBC on the Driscoll situation

ht- Stephen Shields/Challlies

On another note... The Driscoll Dolls have been recalled...

Feeling Good...

When I was first emailed the link regarding the planned protest at Mars Hill, I immediately began asking both the protesters and the elders at Mars Hill what it would look like to bless each other, in spite of their serious theological differences.

One of the things I suggested was that everyone sit down and talk about this. Perhaps as a way of staving off a protest. This was greeted with a fair amount of incrudlity- Mark was too busy, there was too much to address, it would just never happen, etc.

Well, it happened. The meeting happened, the discussion was good and the protest is called off.

Good work, everyone.

Now that's the difference being a Christ-follower makes. That's peacemaking.
I'm proud of you all...

Meeting with Mark Driscoll and others

The meeting I had hoped would happen between Mark Driscoll and others happened last night...

Rose Madrid-Swetman talks about it here.

Rose has this to say:

"Last night Rich and I met with Nancy Murphy (Exec Director of a Domestic Violence Center in Seattle), Tom Murphy, Sandy Brown (Exec Dir of World Council of Churches Seattle), Paul Chapman (protest organizer), Dwight Friesen, Mark Driscoll, and Leif Moi (pastor and elder at Mars Hill Church).

My initial thoughts are going to be brief.

Our conversation was frank and honest. I appreciated the maturity and humility that everyone in the room demonstrated. My sense was that everyone felt heard.

We basically focused on two things: First, the offensiveness of Mark’s language in the public arena. How it hurts and divides. After an open conversation with everyone's participation it seemed that everyone felt heard by Mark. Second, we discussed the protest. Hearing from Mark and Leif--their concerns, my hope is that they felt heard.

The spirit in which we all met was not adversarial but was toward reconciliation by all. I deeply appreciated that everyone remained open and respectful.

There was a very meaningful exchange between Paul and Mark with regard to the protest which brought them both to a place of recognizing their words as harmful. There seemed to be an agreement that an apology for inflammatory rhetoric would be appropriate from both of them.

We all agreed to disagree about our theology and that we could have a healthier way of expressing our difference to the wider community.

I am thankful to all for the graciousness and humility displayed in the midst of difference.

Here are a few things I have learned:

Words on a blog or on a paper are one thing—people in a room who those words touch are quite another

Truth and mercy – a powerful combination

We are all life long learners on this journey where confession, forgiveness, and reconciliation is one of our highest callings.

That Mark and I may have serious theological differences but at the end of the day we have both given our lives for the sake of the gospel

I am hopeful that reconciliation has begun and will continue – time will tell.

I want to thank Mark for coming to the conversation as a peacemaker and not a street fighter. I pray God’s best for him and for Mars Hill Church."

Amen!

Give Rose a shout-out over at her blog...

Ancient Pastor to Modern Pastors..

Church father Jerome, in Letter 52, gives some sound advice for all of us pastors, even ones with big churches and blogs!

He says "Never discuss a woman's figure..."

Good words :)

Also "Make it your object, therefore, to keep your tongue chaste as well as your eyes."

Even better!

Driscoll clarifies...

Mark Driscoll thanks his critics...

As I have re-read my blog, I can see how some may have misconstrued what I said. Because I was writing to male pastors, I spoke in such a way that was not as clear as it could have been regarding what is true of Christian marriage in general. Therefore, I hope that this post is more clarifying.

My heart remains deeply burdened for the many young pastors who either do not enter ministry with a history of sexual purity and/or are struggling to maintain it in marriage and ministry. Pastors must continually strive for loving and satisfying intimacy on all levels with our spouse and to finish our race well many miles down the road of life. If you are a young pastor or Christian leader reading this blog who knows deep down that you are not in the best of places with your spouse and fidelity to them, I would simply urge you to seek wise counsel right away. Do not settle for anything less than what God intends for your marriage because too much is at stake to take any risks.

Lastly, I want to thank my critics, especially the most vocal. They have helped me to understand that more than just pastors are following what I am saying. Subsequently, they are helping me to learn how to more clearly articulate what I am trying to communicate. In that way, they have been of great assistance to me as I seek to pastor most effectively for Jesus. I have waited some time to post this clarification because in times past I have gotten angry and responded with a tone that was defensive, prideful, and not helpful. I am learning that critics in some ways are also friends because there is often some truth in what they are pointing out. Subsequently, God is using my critics to teach me and is asking me to be willing to listen.

You're welcome, Mark :)
Thanks for teaching me as well...

Can't we all just get along?

So, yeah... here's what the whole Driscoll mess has done to traffic here:

Honestly- I'm a bit conflicted. That is, of course I enjoy traffic (of course!), but I hate conflict (seriously!) and I hate that the internet makes it so damn easy to get in a kerfuffle about any and every thing. Some things are worth fighting over, no mistake. But all things that are worth fighting over are worth doing so right and the flip side to the internet making fights easy is that it makes good, decent fights so very, very hard.

So, a few things in summary, and then we're done with Mr D for a bit...

It is wrong, as the organizers of the planned protest have, to characterize a sit down with the elders of Mars Hll as "sweeping things under the rug, hugging it out in the back room". Far from it. I imagine the conversation and results would be very difficult to keep quiet. This would be a conversation conducted, for all intents and purposes, within the public gaze.

Second, the general public in Seattle is becoming aware of this protest thing. And while at first blush, a positive response from something like the "the Stranger" might seem encouraging to the protestors, I would advise them to read the comments and understand that the net result of this whole matter will be a re-inforcement of the (unfortunately) often-true stereotype of Christians as being completely unable to avoid infighting. It will give those looking for a reason to demean faith in Jesus just that much more ammo. And it will pit churches against each other, as communities draw up sides. Again, this is the wrong way to handle the matter.

Scot McKnight has published an open Letter from Seattle pastor Rose Swetman asking for a sit-down with the elders and Mark. He's urging that they do so. I am as well. In addition, Rose asked that I publish the letter, so I will do so below.

All of this to say... my head hurts. Gotta get some real work done now...

Latest on the Driscoll, pt 2

See part 1 below...

My question for those who are planning to protest Mark still stands- what difference does Jesus make among Christ followers with profound disagreements? What does being a peacemaker look like in this situation? What would it mean to bless Mark and Mars Hill (who are clearly here "the enemy")???

I asked the same question of the leadership at Mars Hill, and I think they are taking it to heart- here's one response I got:

I just wanted to say “thank you” again for the heads up on the protest. A MH member also came across the website and started a thread about it on our member’s site. I think you would be encouraged to hear that all of the comments around that thread have consisted of variations on the following: “let’s pray for them.” “I hope a lot of people come so that I can love on them.” “My wife and kids and I will be hanging out there with umbrellas for them.” and “I’m going to get to church early and make some extra coffee and tea for them.” Also, Rob Smith (from Agathos) seems to be engaging them fairly well on their blog. Hopefully his invitation to sit down will be accepted. Rob is a great guy.

I love that Mars Hill is responding to threats of protest this way. It shows a lot of maturity on the part of MH members...

So... all that aside...

Latest on the Driscoll.

So- quite the conversation in the thread below on the planned protest of Driscoll! Thanks, everyone- my mom reads this blog! Sheesh! It got a bit, uh... for Mature Audiences Only there.

In any case, here's where I'm at.

The planned protest is going ahead, but they've moved the date...

A number of questions posed by me have been answered on the blog attached to this event (as well as the helpful tidbit that endfundamentalism.org was started because "Fundamentalism in all faiths is a Bad Thing. This site represents a new group; we’re starting small with Christian Fundamentalism"... why do I have a feeling that this group won't be protesting any mosques where the women are required to cover their entire bodies any time soon???)

Here are some more Q&A's from the site:

Driscoll Protest...

Speaking of foot-in-mouth, let me go out on a limb here (limb? probably more like firestorm, but c'est la guerre)... by the way- I say all this with a sense of humility... I really don't know how to resolve all of this... but everyone hardening into his/her position and against each other won't do it.
The anger against Mark Driscoll has reached a breaking point with some people in the city of Seattle. A protest has been planned...
From Endfundamentalism.org:

Mark Driscoll has been promoting a brutal form of Christianity for more than 10 years. Through his church (Mars Hill) and network of churches (Acts 29), Mark has been actively preaching misogyny to an increasingly large audience in Seattle and beyond through his books, podcasts, and blog, grinding up lives like a woodchipper. (For you fundamentalists out there who are unfamiliar with the term “misogyny” having grown up captive to its influence all your lives, Wikipedia has a nice overview.)

‘Preaching’ may be too staid of a term. He has been relishing in his misogyny, rolling around in it like a feline in catnip. His latest women-bashing came in a blog post about former pastor (and former head of the Christian umbrella organization National Association of Evangelicals) Ted Haggard’s marital infidelity. As is typical with misogynists and other abusers, Mark blamed women for the terribly hard time pastors have controlling their sexual urges: “It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go…” The post makes for an interesting read; Helen, over at Conversation at the Edge dissected it well, so I won’t rehash it here.

Mark also regularly rants against men who don’t meet his minimum testosterone bar, which seems to be a Father Knows Best, 1950s, I-Am-Man-Cook-Me-Dinner, Bear-My-Children sort of fantasy ideal. His poison, though, is woven insidiously through much of his writing and thought. (See for example how he just has to bring the hammer down in an unrelated post here.)

After standing by while Misogynist Mark beats up on women regularly, it is time for us to stand up for the oppressed. People Against Fundamentalism is sickened by the injustice preached from the Mars Hill pulpit. We are done standing by while Mark the Misogynist takes his misguided religion and hollows out the humanity, dignity, and equality of the women in our midst.

So, we’re organizing our first direct action. On Sunday, November 19, we’re going to take a physical stand against injustice outside the Mars Hill Ballard Campus in Seattle at the 11am service.

We’ve no idea if Mark the Misogynist is going to be there. We are not seeking an explosive confrontation or a shouting match. We simply want to show Mars Hill congregants and the rest of Seattle that we will no longer tolerate Driscoll’s view of women.

If you’re interested in participating, sign up at http://lists.endfundamentalism.org/listinfo.cgi/marshill-endfundamentalism.org. Info on how you can help, coordinating details, etc. will be sent to that list. We’re working on a game plan. Your ideas for slogans and placards are welcome.

If you have a story of oppression at the mouth of Mark, please share it in the comments.

My thoughts?

As someone who has spoken out in favor of women in leadership and against Mark’s often-times poorly chosen words and hurtful ideas… I still need to say that I have grave reservations about one set of Christians publicly protesting another set.

I think there must be a better way, more in line with being peacemakers, with blessing those we feel curse us and with maintaining unity among people who follow Jesus in the city of Seattle, even when there are serious disagreements and many feel legitimately injured by words publicly spoken.

I wonder what it would look like to bless Mark and Mars Hill?

oh crap...

Sometimes, our words find audiences we hadn't really anticipated...

The Huffington Post on Mark Driscoll's latest comments.

And here

ht: Scott B

Haggard 'n' Driscoll...

I don't feel compelled to say much about Ted Haggard... Tim Challies (two Challies links in 30 days time... the sky must be falling!!) pretty much sticks the landing here as he responds to those who are responding to Haggard...

There are some who are seeking to make this issue into something almost prophetic, as if it is indicative of the state of evangelicalism. "The Reformed Gadfly," whose post was endorsed by Slice of Laodicea writes, "I'm sick and tired of being associated with a 'Christianity' that does not seem to care one whit about holiness or obedience to God's Word. Let me say this as perfectly clear as I can: I believe that 'Christianity' in America is nearly totally apostate. Why? We have abandoned the vision of the Holiness and Fear of God. We've built a false god that will cater to our flesh and meet our 'felt needs'. Our real need? Repentance. But we don't want to go there. We live in Laodicea. No apologies. Cut and dried. Stuff like this can only happen because contemporary Christianity is rotten to the core."

No, no, no! Stuff like this happens because we are rotten to the core! Stuff like this happens because I am rotten to the core. Oh, that we would all take heed! How can we be sick and tired of being associated with other sinners? I am the greatest sinner I know and can only delight to be in the presence of other sinners, others with whom I can share God's grace and from whom I can learn more about God's grace. The Christian I am most sick and tired of being associated with me, for my sin is before me always! Every day I have to peer into my dark heart and beg God for forgiveness. Every day I see again how my heart is dark and black and awful and filled with emnity towards God. Every day I see in my heart that I am no different than Ted Haggard. But for the grace of God I would do so much more and so much worse. Take heed. I sit here and weep for Haggard and his family and his church, but selfishly, I weep even more for myself, knowing that I, too, could be in such a situation. What is in Haggard is in me. What is in me is in you. But for the grace of God...

And of course... Mr. Driscoll :)
Actually- when I read his comments, I didn't think too terribly much of the parts that seem to be getting everyone upset. Probably not quite the time/context to talk about pastor's wives letting themselves go (yeah, he went there), but you know, that's Mark for you.

However, the response has been... good.

The passage in question from Mark?

Most pastors I know do not have satisfying, free, sexual conversations and liberties with their wives. At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors’ wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband’s sin, but she may not be helping him either.

A good response from Emerging Grace.

And this kind of made me laugh... :)

So nice to be noticed...

From Driscoll's blog...
"I know a lot of people, especially idealists with blogs and small churches, think they know what we should teach and what we should do."

A couple of thoughts...

1. So nice to be noticed!

2. If God could use a talking donkey to get the attention of one of His prophets, surely he can use the blog of an idealist with a small church, right? Of course, only if the prophet stays teachable...

3. There's great danger in seeing size as validation, and growth as God's approval. I'm pretty sure that if Osteen can build the biggest church in America doing sermons on the value of eating a healthy breakfast, then we should take "size" and "growth" off the table as indicators that we're doing everything right. I think it's possible for growth even to be a test... a test of our ecclesiology, of our trust in God to provide (church planters, resources, people to love, teach and shepherd...), and most of all a test of the guy with the catalytic personality who runs the risk of starting to think that unless he teaches them, they ain't gonna get taught (and believe it or not, I'm talking to myself there).

God bless Mark Driscoll. Really! (Wish I didn't have to add the "Really!) God bless him with wisdom and discernment to choose the best over the good (and I say that NOT knowing what all that is in his context).
God bless him with the ability to stay on track morally and ethically and in every other way- because a fall by a guy with thousands of people looking at him every week is an awful, awful thing, so may it never happen to this particular guy who is so much in the spotlight right now.

And God bless him with a soft heart that can learn from the "biggest and the best" as well as from the idealist with the small church who just might have something important to say to the guy with the big-ass church. I remember this young guy from Seattle who used to fit that category...

Mark concludes: "I would especially appreciate the prayers of our critics because some of their criticisms may in fact be accurate and we are straining to keep up with the wildfire that God has set ablaze in our midst."
Done and done!